4 ms·

I have the same problem. I'm actually intentionally underpaid because this way (1) I have less anxiety about getting fired (2) I have less problems with imposte

I have the same problem. I'm actually intentionally underpaid because this way (1) I have less anxiety about getting fired (2) I have less problems with imposter syndrome (3) I worry less about being underpaid since I know I'm underpaid. I know most people will think this is extremely irrational, but I'm paid about 3 times more than I can spend (I live very cheap and am happy this way) so I already save 2/3 of my take home paycheck. At this point, having better mental health and working in a nice company that lets me solve hard software problems is the most important thing, imho.

Sharlin 8y ago
> I know most people will think this is extremely irrational I think that's perfectly reasonable. I find it hard to believe it would be "extremely irrational" to most people. Maybe I'm underestimating the extent to which money is fetishized in your culture (I presume the US). Also, being able to save 2/3 of your net salary is... a ludicrously privileged position, underpaid or not.
- gnulinux 8y ago
  > Maybe I'm underestimating the extent to which money is fetishized in your culture I worked in the Bay Area and currently in Boston. I live in the startup culture. > Also, being able to save 2/3 of your net salary is... a ludicrously privileged position, underpaid or not. Yes! We software engineers are lucky. Even when we're underpaid (I'm paid $90k and my friends with similar experience, same education, same interest/skills are paid $150k--$250k) we can afford to have a comfortable life. It seems like I won't be able to afford to buy a house any time soon compared to say a Google engineer making $300k a year, but that's the only disadvantage I can think of now. (I hate mortgage and what not)
  - ljf 8y ago
    Amazing saving, at that rate just 10 years away from 'retiring' or living on the same money you give yourself today, forever... http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/15/a-brief-history-of-the-stash-how-we-saved-from-zero-to-retirement-in-ten-years/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/15/a-brief-history-of... Though if I ever get close to this the plan isn't to retire just to have total choice of the work I do.
  - aliston 8y ago
    How is it possible to save 2/3rds of a 90k salary in Boston? After tax, that's probably about 64k, which means you manage to live on 21k a year? The average studio in Boston rents for more than that a year...
    - gnulinux 8y ago
      I'm very young (21) so no need for a studio. My current rent is $900 including everything. I'm extremely conscious of what I eat to a paranoia level so I never eat out (except when I go out on a date with a girl or a close friends) so I cook home (I have a Trader Joe's literally next to my house) and my monthly food expense is $200. With various other stuff (gym, phone, entertainment, Uber etc...) I spend less than $1500 a month. I bike, so no transportation expense. My take home is ~$6000 a month. That lets me save around $4000/$4500 a month and $3000 on "bad" months (need to buy stuff, furniture etc...). I live comfortable enough that I don't know what I would do if I spent more than $1500 a month. I spend 90% of my free time in gym anyway :-)
      - justboxing 8y ago
        This is simply not sustainable. As a veteran in this industry, I must tell you that a software engineer's career is very similar to an athlete or model's career in the sense that you make the most money in your career only in your early years ( 10 - 12 years after the first 3 to 5 years). So if you started your career at 21 and if you are above average, your salary will grow from 25 to 25 / 37 or even 40. After that, ageism will play a role, so also newer tech that companies would prefer to hire the younger version of you rather than pay you your high salary. Given that, if you already settle for a low salary and remain content at 21, you'll very quickly get priced out of your neighborhood in Boston (I own a rental unit there in Fenway and know the going rents for 1 BR, 2 BRs), and if you do end up getting married and having kids, your current lifestyle and saving will not be sustainable.
        gnulinux 8y ago
        Thanks I'll take this into consideration but, as a note, I live near Central Square, Cambridge and $900 is a pretty average rent for a mid sized room. I don't know what "you'll very quickly get priced out of your neighborhood in Boston" means. If suddenly housing market inflates and my rent increases, it's not like I won't be able to afford it? I've already been working for a while (I graduated early from uni) so I already have an emergency fund that's enough for me to live off of about 5 months without income.
  - olvo 8y ago
    I can admire you attitude and I wouldn't encourage you to chase money. Many people on Hacker News lack perspective because of the bland way that Hacker News works. But I would still fear that being underpaid isn't sustainable, especially not in the US. I see people all the time online that don't negotiate, or question the terms, of their contract and then get disappointed when they e.g. get laid off without notice. Are you sure you wouldn't be negatively affected if your landlord, manager or friends decides to screw you over? There is nothing wrong with being underpaid, but in the long run you want to make sure that it is for a good reason. It is hard to focus on more important things and ignore inequality, because inequality sucks. It doesn't matter how much attachment your have to an area, or what it means for your quality of life to live close to that workplace, when your rent skyrockets. You will most likely move while instead your landlords and their new tenants do whatever they think is important. Maybe you are prepared for it or found some way to avoid that, but to me the US often just seem fundamentally incompatible with caring about important things without a lot of effort or money to back it up.
justaguyhere 8y ago
I know I am getting underpaid, but I am okay with it. For me, it is the ratio of money and stress that matters. Lets say I get 20% hike but it comes with 50% more stress. I'd say no thanks and be happy with what I got. Better work is welcome, but more stress isn't.
- airstrike 8y ago
  What if it's a 2,000% hike with 100% more stress?
  - gnulinux 8y ago
    I think there is definitely a stress ceiling after which I wouldn't accept any paycheck to let me do the job. But this is my personal opinion, I would imagine more stress => less demand on the job market => higher paycheck. For me, money isn't the end goal, but a necessary part of the adventure. When you play RPGs you don't try to make crazy money, you make enough to buy things you want in the game. That's kinda sorta how I see my financial situation.
    - airstrike 8y ago
      I hear you... Money isn't the end-goal for me either. I'm just hoping I'll be able endure the stress long enough so I can retire early (at age ~50) and enjoy a virtually stress-free retirement but we'll see...
  - azhenley 8y ago
    The other element I always consider is the risk. Right now the GP knows the amount of stress the job causes. Changing jobs has risk about his/her ability to estimate the stress caused by the new job. I have a tendency to ignore things like stress (hard to measure) when selecting a job while overvaluing things that are easy to measure.
- allthecybers 8y ago
  I made a similar calculation a while ago when I moved from working at small companies to enterprise level tech and cybersecurity positions. My goal is to maximize the amount of money that can be made without the stress, pressure and demand of the job overtaking the enjoyment of the compensation. Admittedly, I could be making more money and being more aggressive in my career but ultimately I am satisfied with the balance I have found.
nbeleski 8y ago
> working in a nice company that lets me solve hard software problems is the most important thing A thousand times this. Working for a small company it is expected that they won't be able to pay a highly competitive salary, but I have quite a few benefits. However the most important part by far is being able to work solving software problems. Sometimes when doing explorative work I actually get to implement and (hopefully) reproduce recent scientific papers results. The highly technical work plus the low-pressure enviroment has been great for my mental health. I even get to leave early the days I have classes, with no reduced pay.
wjossey 8y ago
I applaud you for finding a way to manage your anxiety, which allows you to live a sustainable and full life. You only get so many years on this earth, so live it however you want! Best of luck to you.
not_real_acct 8y ago
In my experience, there's very little correlation between salary and longevity. There definitely seems to be a correlation between salary and "demand." For instance, Kubernetes is really hot right now, and there's a limited supply of people who know it, so people that know it can make upwards of $200K. OTOH, you could be the world's greatest Windows admin and you'll be lucky to make half that, because there's a million people who know Windows. TLDR: specialization is more lucrative than sheer hard work and expertise.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Yes, although you always need to be looking toward the future. The market for Y2K consultants, even "world class" ones, wasn't so good in 2002. (Admittedly for a variety of reasons in addition to the obvious one.)
eweise 8y ago
I could see being underpaid actually causing you to get fired if it was a perceived signal for how valuable you are.
foobarandgrill 8y ago
I do the exact same thing, so you're not alone
dtech 8y ago
You are of course free to do this, but you bring up 3 points, let's inspect them. I'm assuming you're being underpaid by $6k or more a year. 1: Fair, but should you worry about getting fired? Even if you are in danger, if save 2/3 of your paycheck for every month of work you can afford a month of unemployment with no adjustment in lifestyle, that's already large, but you could increase this padding by having a market-conforming salary. 2: Is this worth $500+ a month to you? If so, I'd suggest you seek a therapist, because that is a much healthier long-term way to solve this problem. 3: Well yes... You can also try to not worry about it while earning more. A nice company, normal hours and a good and interesting job is certainly worth an enormous intangible amount! However, all things being equal I would not recommend you keep being intentionally underpaid.
- anothergoogler 8y ago
  You're ignoring the fact that most highly paid positions come with a lot of bullshit. Depending on the position and company, that could be overwork, ridiculous politics, or the inability for your work to have any impact. I still make good money by my standards, but it's $65k less than my highest pay (cash, not RSUs). No regrets. I find your advice that somebody not maximizing their earnings "seek a therapist" a bit tone-deaf.
arountheworld 8y ago
You can get used to any salary in few months. You could be earning 2x as you currently are and feel exactly the same after a couple of months.
- paulgrant999 8y ago
  make more. eventually, you hit a wall where you have to move to buy overpriced shit, that fits your new "salary". What do you think a billionaire does with his money? How much shit can you buy before you simply, run out of shit to buy?
  - arountheworld 8y ago
    You may assume that would happen, but unless you really have a thing to show off, you'll keep a similar lifestyle and just watch your savings account growing. I know very few people who permanently changed their behaviour after a sudden change in their earnings. This is of course just anecdotal evidence.
    - paulgrant999 8y ago
      Clearly you have not seen lotto winners. Or wall street people:) Or the really wealthy. ;) What your talking about, is upper-middle, lower-high. Eventually if you make enough cash, you will hit that limit. Sort of the whole "ball-washer" bit by Lewis Black.
      - arountheworld 8y ago
        But I am clearly not talking about lotto-winners, but someone who gets 2x salary, who may behave weird first couple of months and then becomes "normal". I fully agree about the lotto winners though. I had witnessed it actually as my school friend's parents won. For lack of a better description - they have become like animals with unlimited money, but money ended quickly though.
        8y ago

Sharlin 8y ago

> I know most people will think this is extremely irrational I think that's perfectly reasonable. I find it hard to believe it would be "extremely irrational" to most people. Maybe I'm underestimating the extent to which money is fetishized in your culture (I presume the US). Also, being able to save 2/3 of your net salary is... a ludicrously privileged position, underpaid or not.

gnulinux 8y ago
> Maybe I'm underestimating the extent to which money is fetishized in your culture I worked in the Bay Area and currently in Boston. I live in the startup culture. > Also, being able to save 2/3 of your net salary is... a ludicrously privileged position, underpaid or not. Yes! We software engineers are lucky. Even when we're underpaid (I'm paid $90k and my friends with similar experience, same education, same interest/skills are paid $150k--$250k) we can afford to have a comfortable life. It seems like I won't be able to afford to buy a house any time soon compared to say a Google engineer making $300k a year, but that's the only disadvantage I can think of now. (I hate mortgage and what not)
- ljf 8y ago
  Amazing saving, at that rate just 10 years away from 'retiring' or living on the same money you give yourself today, forever... http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/15/a-brief-history-of-the-stash-how-we-saved-from-zero-to-retirement-in-ten-years/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/15/a-brief-history-of... Though if I ever get close to this the plan isn't to retire just to have total choice of the work I do.
- aliston 8y ago
  How is it possible to save 2/3rds of a 90k salary in Boston? After tax, that's probably about 64k, which means you manage to live on 21k a year? The average studio in Boston rents for more than that a year...
  - gnulinux 8y ago
    I'm very young (21) so no need for a studio. My current rent is $900 including everything. I'm extremely conscious of what I eat to a paranoia level so I never eat out (except when I go out on a date with a girl or a close friends) so I cook home (I have a Trader Joe's literally next to my house) and my monthly food expense is $200. With various other stuff (gym, phone, entertainment, Uber etc...) I spend less than $1500 a month. I bike, so no transportation expense. My take home is ~$6000 a month. That lets me save around $4000/$4500 a month and $3000 on "bad" months (need to buy stuff, furniture etc...). I live comfortable enough that I don't know what I would do if I spent more than $1500 a month. I spend 90% of my free time in gym anyway :-)
    - justboxing 8y ago
      This is simply not sustainable. As a veteran in this industry, I must tell you that a software engineer's career is very similar to an athlete or model's career in the sense that you make the most money in your career only in your early years ( 10 - 12 years after the first 3 to 5 years). So if you started your career at 21 and if you are above average, your salary will grow from 25 to 25 / 37 or even 40. After that, ageism will play a role, so also newer tech that companies would prefer to hire the younger version of you rather than pay you your high salary. Given that, if you already settle for a low salary and remain content at 21, you'll very quickly get priced out of your neighborhood in Boston (I own a rental unit there in Fenway and know the going rents for 1 BR, 2 BRs), and if you do end up getting married and having kids, your current lifestyle and saving will not be sustainable.
      - gnulinux 8y ago
        Thanks I'll take this into consideration but, as a note, I live near Central Square, Cambridge and $900 is a pretty average rent for a mid sized room. I don't know what "you'll very quickly get priced out of your neighborhood in Boston" means. If suddenly housing market inflates and my rent increases, it's not like I won't be able to afford it? I've already been working for a while (I graduated early from uni) so I already have an emergency fund that's enough for me to live off of about 5 months without income.
- olvo 8y ago
  I can admire you attitude and I wouldn't encourage you to chase money. Many people on Hacker News lack perspective because of the bland way that Hacker News works. But I would still fear that being underpaid isn't sustainable, especially not in the US. I see people all the time online that don't negotiate, or question the terms, of their contract and then get disappointed when they e.g. get laid off without notice. Are you sure you wouldn't be negatively affected if your landlord, manager or friends decides to screw you over? There is nothing wrong with being underpaid, but in the long run you want to make sure that it is for a good reason. It is hard to focus on more important things and ignore inequality, because inequality sucks. It doesn't matter how much attachment your have to an area, or what it means for your quality of life to live close to that workplace, when your rent skyrockets. You will most likely move while instead your landlords and their new tenants do whatever they think is important. Maybe you are prepared for it or found some way to avoid that, but to me the US often just seem fundamentally incompatible with caring about important things without a lot of effort or money to back it up.

justaguyhere 8y ago

I know I am getting underpaid, but I am okay with it. For me, it is the ratio of money and stress that matters. Lets say I get 20% hike but it comes with 50% more stress. I'd say no thanks and be happy with what I got. Better work is welcome, but more stress isn't.

airstrike 8y ago
What if it's a 2,000% hike with 100% more stress?
- gnulinux 8y ago
  I think there is definitely a stress ceiling after which I wouldn't accept any paycheck to let me do the job. But this is my personal opinion, I would imagine more stress => less demand on the job market => higher paycheck. For me, money isn't the end goal, but a necessary part of the adventure. When you play RPGs you don't try to make crazy money, you make enough to buy things you want in the game. That's kinda sorta how I see my financial situation.
  - airstrike 8y ago
    I hear you... Money isn't the end-goal for me either. I'm just hoping I'll be able endure the stress long enough so I can retire early (at age ~50) and enjoy a virtually stress-free retirement but we'll see...
- azhenley 8y ago
  The other element I always consider is the risk. Right now the GP knows the amount of stress the job causes. Changing jobs has risk about his/her ability to estimate the stress caused by the new job. I have a tendency to ignore things like stress (hard to measure) when selecting a job while overvaluing things that are easy to measure.
allthecybers 8y ago
I made a similar calculation a while ago when I moved from working at small companies to enterprise level tech and cybersecurity positions. My goal is to maximize the amount of money that can be made without the stress, pressure and demand of the job overtaking the enjoyment of the compensation. Admittedly, I could be making more money and being more aggressive in my career but ultimately I am satisfied with the balance I have found.

nbeleski 8y ago

> working in a nice company that lets me solve hard software problems is the most important thing A thousand times this. Working for a small company it is expected that they won't be able to pay a highly competitive salary, but I have quite a few benefits. However the most important part by far is being able to work solving software problems. Sometimes when doing explorative work I actually get to implement and (hopefully) reproduce recent scientific papers results. The highly technical work plus the low-pressure enviroment has been great for my mental health. I even get to leave early the days I have classes, with no reduced pay.

wjossey 8y ago

I applaud you for finding a way to manage your anxiety, which allows you to live a sustainable and full life. You only get so many years on this earth, so live it however you want! Best of luck to you.

not_real_acct 8y ago

In my experience, there's very little correlation between salary and longevity. There definitely seems to be a correlation between salary and "demand." For instance, Kubernetes is really hot right now, and there's a limited supply of people who know it, so people that know it can make upwards of $200K. OTOH, you could be the world's greatest Windows admin and you'll be lucky to make half that, because there's a million people who know Windows. TLDR: specialization is more lucrative than sheer hard work and expertise.

ghaff 8y ago
Yes, although you always need to be looking toward the future. The market for Y2K consultants, even "world class" ones, wasn't so good in 2002. (Admittedly for a variety of reasons in addition to the obvious one.)

eweise 8y ago

I could see being underpaid actually causing you to get fired if it was a perceived signal for how valuable you are.

foobarandgrill 8y ago

I do the exact same thing, so you're not alone

dtech 8y ago

You are of course free to do this, but you bring up 3 points, let's inspect them. I'm assuming you're being underpaid by $6k or more a year. 1: Fair, but should you worry about getting fired? Even if you are in danger, if save 2/3 of your paycheck for every month of work you can afford a month of unemployment with no adjustment in lifestyle, that's already large, but you could increase this padding by having a market-conforming salary. 2: Is this worth $500+ a month to you? If so, I'd suggest you seek a therapist, because that is a much healthier long-term way to solve this problem. 3: Well yes... You can also try to not worry about it while earning more. A nice company, normal hours and a good and interesting job is certainly worth an enormous intangible amount! However, all things being equal I would not recommend you keep being intentionally underpaid.

anothergoogler 8y ago
You're ignoring the fact that most highly paid positions come with a lot of bullshit. Depending on the position and company, that could be overwork, ridiculous politics, or the inability for your work to have any impact. I still make good money by my standards, but it's $65k less than my highest pay (cash, not RSUs). No regrets. I find your advice that somebody not maximizing their earnings "seek a therapist" a bit tone-deaf.

arountheworld 8y ago

You can get used to any salary in few months. You could be earning 2x as you currently are and feel exactly the same after a couple of months.

paulgrant999 8y ago
make more. eventually, you hit a wall where you have to move to buy overpriced shit, that fits your new "salary". What do you think a billionaire does with his money? How much shit can you buy before you simply, run out of shit to buy?
- arountheworld 8y ago
  You may assume that would happen, but unless you really have a thing to show off, you'll keep a similar lifestyle and just watch your savings account growing. I know very few people who permanently changed their behaviour after a sudden change in their earnings. This is of course just anecdotal evidence.
  - paulgrant999 8y ago
    Clearly you have not seen lotto winners. Or wall street people:) Or the really wealthy. ;) What your talking about, is upper-middle, lower-high. Eventually if you make enough cash, you will hit that limit. Sort of the whole "ball-washer" bit by Lewis Black.
    - arountheworld 8y ago
      But I am clearly not talking about lotto-winners, but someone who gets 2x salary, who may behave weird first couple of months and then becomes "normal". I fully agree about the lotto winners though. I had witnessed it actually as my school friend's parents won. For lack of a better description - they have become like animals with unlimited money, but money ended quickly though.
      - 8y ago