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Wow, maybe YC and HN are coming around to pervasive inclusion issues in tech. Until I see some action though, I'm left with the memory of that time I posted sur

by vandot 8y ago

Wow, maybe YC and HN are coming around to pervasive inclusion issues in tech. Until I see some action though, I'm left with the memory of that time I posted survey results about women in Seattle tech scene and it was flagged. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13558116 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13558116 I see that a thankful comment on this article is already flagged, so... seems like much has not changed.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
beat 8y ago
I've noticed that any sort of progressive/inclusive comments get aggressively downvoted on HN. It's sad and frustrating.
- exogeny 8y ago
  It's analogous to pointing out that the #1 trait that successful founders have in common is family wealth - it causes people to have to look into their own privilege, and it ain't pretty.
- nailer 8y ago
  I find the opposite - I've been on HN around a decade, a few months ago, during a discussion on living in SV I mentioned that the valley is a cultural wasteland. dang said this was a 'slur' and not acceptable on HN. The idea that it's unacceptable to criticise the culture of an area, and that people need to be protected from this idea, would be unthinkable on Startup News.
  - beat 8y ago
    Can't both be true? Are these actually opposites?
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    The whole point here is to have more signal than noise, and it's usually successful. I made a similar comment a few years ago about another geography and got a similar response. It gave me pause. Reflecting on it, the way dang and others handle these things is right, if you have a point, you can make it without making an insulting generalization and characterization. If you don't, at the end of the day, whatever point you try to make is wiped by the visceral response.
    - nailer 8y ago
      I'd be surprised if dang or others took offense to saying "Ohio is a cultural wasteland". Removing all color from speech makes the world a very boring place. Criticising bay area culture is not a 'slur' and saying that is more inflammatory than the original statement.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- amyjess 8y ago
  I've noticed this as well, and on a few occasions it's caused me to cut down on my participation here.
- vikasg 8y ago
  It's because HN prides itself on "civility". So you can "innocently", "just to be fair", "playing the devil's advocate", "but what about" say any offensive thing you like, and when someone who's sick of hearing that bullshit uses a naughty word they get downvoted for being "uncivil". The rest of the internet figured out long ago that such behavior is actually pretty toxic, and is called "sealioning" [0][1] [0] http://wondermark.com/1k62/ http://wondermark.com/1k62/ [1] footnotes. It's all civil if you have footnotes.
- int_19h 8y ago
  Looking at the comments on this story, at least, I'm not seeing it. Most downvoted comments are from those disputing the study, or "what about men?" etc.
tedivm 8y ago
YC and HN are linked but are definitely not the same. The HN community is pretty well known for being toxic when it comes to these topics.
- slg 8y ago
  And it stinks that the HN moderators' reaction to this issue generally seems to be to brush it under the rug. Almost all meaningful discussions on this topic are quickly flagged off the front page. You don't solve a problem by pretending it doesn't exist.
  - Mononokay 8y ago
    Mods don't do flagging; users do.
  - sctb 8y ago
    Moderators don't flag stories off the front page, users do. The most common moderator reaction to threads on this topic is to turn off the flags, ask people in the thread who are violating the guidelines to please stop violating the guidelines (or ban them), and sometimes post a preemptive top comment asking potential commenters to please not violate the guidelines. This is a community site and the members of this community are responsible for their own behavior, including how they relate to the community. This is why there are user moderation tools like voting and flagging.
    - slg 8y ago
      I realize the mods don't control the flags. They do however know that flagging is an issue when it comes to these topics. They could do more to facilitate the discussion of these issues. They already do dictate behavior in a number of other ways (e.g. personal insults are one thing that results in heavy moderation). EDIT: A prime example is that this post is currently 5th on the HN front page and has roughly triple the points of the 3rd and 4th items on the front page in roughly half the time. That means this post is almost certainly being suppressed with flagging. Will the mods do anything to protect this post?
another-cuppa 8y ago
Really? HN is probably the most feminised tech forum that's ever existed.
- atroz 8y ago
  Mods literally ban you if you say something sexist. idk what this guy is talking about lol
- cimmanom 8y ago
  Indeed it is. And yet I wouldn't describe it as remotely feminized, only slightly less hostile to women than, say, Slashdot. IMO, that says more about tech forums and the tech community than it does about HN.
  - another-cuppa 8y ago
    What actually would HN be like if it were perfect in your eyes? What would tech be like?
    - matt4077 8y ago
      decent.
      - another-cuppa 8y ago
        Right. You have absolutely no idea.
jnovek 8y ago
I’m also excited to see this progression. I remember being showered with downvotes only 5 years ago when I took the unpopular stance that the SV monoculture was poinsonous. But don’t forget — it’s about making a better world, not winning at Hacker News. It sucks that your post got flagged, but you live to fight another day :-).
- RodericDay 8y ago
  I got shadowbanned, but I still enjoy seeing other people carry on
sctb 8y ago
> I see that a thankful comment on this article is already flagged, so... seems like much has not changed. I don't see a flagged comment like that. Could you link to it?
- sp332 8y ago
  The whole submission was flagged.
yorwba 8y ago
I think your submission would have fared better if you had used a less incendiary title, like maybe "Seattle Startup Diversity Survey" and linked to the report at https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57b77304b3db2bfb203fbf3f/t/5894e9c2be65941f9faf2f6f/1486154181191/Seattle+StartUp+Survey_Web.pdf https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57b77304b3db2bfb203fb... But maybe I'm fooling myself and it would've been flagged anyway.

by vandot 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

beat 8y ago

I've noticed that any sort of progressive/inclusive comments get aggressively downvoted on HN. It's sad and frustrating.

exogeny 8y ago
It's analogous to pointing out that the #1 trait that successful founders have in common is family wealth - it causes people to have to look into their own privilege, and it ain't pretty.
nailer 8y ago
I find the opposite - I've been on HN around a decade, a few months ago, during a discussion on living in SV I mentioned that the valley is a cultural wasteland. dang said this was a 'slur' and not acceptable on HN. The idea that it's unacceptable to criticise the culture of an area, and that people need to be protected from this idea, would be unthinkable on Startup News.
- beat 8y ago
  Can't both be true? Are these actually opposites?
- Spooky23 8y ago
  The whole point here is to have more signal than noise, and it's usually successful. I made a similar comment a few years ago about another geography and got a similar response. It gave me pause. Reflecting on it, the way dang and others handle these things is right, if you have a point, you can make it without making an insulting generalization and characterization. If you don't, at the end of the day, whatever point you try to make is wiped by the visceral response.
  - nailer 8y ago
    I'd be surprised if dang or others took offense to saying "Ohio is a cultural wasteland". Removing all color from speech makes the world a very boring place. Criticising bay area culture is not a 'slur' and saying that is more inflammatory than the original statement.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
amyjess 8y ago
I've noticed this as well, and on a few occasions it's caused me to cut down on my participation here.
vikasg 8y ago
It's because HN prides itself on "civility". So you can "innocently", "just to be fair", "playing the devil's advocate", "but what about" say any offensive thing you like, and when someone who's sick of hearing that bullshit uses a naughty word they get downvoted for being "uncivil". The rest of the internet figured out long ago that such behavior is actually pretty toxic, and is called "sealioning" [0][1] [0] http://wondermark.com/1k62/ http://wondermark.com/1k62/ [1] footnotes. It's all civil if you have footnotes.
int_19h 8y ago
Looking at the comments on this story, at least, I'm not seeing it. Most downvoted comments are from those disputing the study, or "what about men?" etc.

tedivm 8y ago

YC and HN are linked but are definitely not the same. The HN community is pretty well known for being toxic when it comes to these topics.

slg 8y ago
And it stinks that the HN moderators' reaction to this issue generally seems to be to brush it under the rug. Almost all meaningful discussions on this topic are quickly flagged off the front page. You don't solve a problem by pretending it doesn't exist.
- Mononokay 8y ago
  Mods don't do flagging; users do.
- sctb 8y ago
  Moderators don't flag stories off the front page, users do. The most common moderator reaction to threads on this topic is to turn off the flags, ask people in the thread who are violating the guidelines to please stop violating the guidelines (or ban them), and sometimes post a preemptive top comment asking potential commenters to please not violate the guidelines. This is a community site and the members of this community are responsible for their own behavior, including how they relate to the community. This is why there are user moderation tools like voting and flagging.
  - slg 8y ago
    I realize the mods don't control the flags. They do however know that flagging is an issue when it comes to these topics. They could do more to facilitate the discussion of these issues. They already do dictate behavior in a number of other ways (e.g. personal insults are one thing that results in heavy moderation). EDIT: A prime example is that this post is currently 5th on the HN front page and has roughly triple the points of the 3rd and 4th items on the front page in roughly half the time. That means this post is almost certainly being suppressed with flagging. Will the mods do anything to protect this post?

another-cuppa 8y ago

Really? HN is probably the most feminised tech forum that's ever existed.

atroz 8y ago
Mods literally ban you if you say something sexist. idk what this guy is talking about lol
cimmanom 8y ago
Indeed it is. And yet I wouldn't describe it as remotely feminized, only slightly less hostile to women than, say, Slashdot. IMO, that says more about tech forums and the tech community than it does about HN.
- another-cuppa 8y ago
  What actually would HN be like if it were perfect in your eyes? What would tech be like?
  - matt4077 8y ago
    decent.
    - another-cuppa 8y ago
      Right. You have absolutely no idea.

jnovek 8y ago

I’m also excited to see this progression. I remember being showered with downvotes only 5 years ago when I took the unpopular stance that the SV monoculture was poinsonous. But don’t forget — it’s about making a better world, not winning at Hacker News. It sucks that your post got flagged, but you live to fight another day :-).

RodericDay 8y ago
I got shadowbanned, but I still enjoy seeing other people carry on

sctb 8y ago

> I see that a thankful comment on this article is already flagged, so... seems like much has not changed. I don't see a flagged comment like that. Could you link to it?

sp332 8y ago
The whole submission was flagged.

yorwba 8y ago

I think your submission would have fared better if you had used a less incendiary title, like maybe "Seattle Startup Diversity Survey" and linked to the report at https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57b77304b3db2bfb203fbf3f/t/5894e9c2be65941f9faf2f6f/1486154181191/Seattle+StartUp+Survey_Web.pdf https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57b77304b3db2bfb203fb... But maybe I'm fooling myself and it would've been flagged anyway.