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Do you know any examples of people being fired from their jobs for criticizing the Iraq war in 2004? There are many examples of people getting fired for questio

by Meekro 8y ago

Do you know any examples of people being fired from their jobs for criticizing the Iraq war in 2004? There are many examples of people getting fired for questioning the tenets of social justice, including some fired for relatively minor violations.

natestemen 8y ago
could you give some examples of people being fired for "relatively minor violations"?
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
  What about a Python conference and two guys joking about forking a repo?
  - drewrv 8y ago
    The woman who called them out also got fired. And swarmed with rape/death threats too.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
      This doesn't change the fact much. Moreover, later it turned out she misunderstood the part about forking. Which leads to the question: do we accept the world in which someone can be fired because of a false accusation? Can we really call it “progressive”?
      - drewrv 8y ago
        It changes the narrative of "liberal bullies are ruining our dongle jokes". The fact that a woman was fired for trying to make our industry more inclusive shows we're not a leftie monoculture. The fact that she was subjected to rape and death threats shows there's a lot of toxic misogyny in our industry. It can be simultaneously true that people are afraid to talk because of SJWs criticizing them, and also they can be afraid to talk because right wing trolls will target them for harassment. Who in their right mind would want to risk being the next Zoë Quinn?
        dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
        I agree both scenarios are toxic. But there might be a possibility worth considering that one fuels the other.
- livestyle 8y ago
  Andrew Torba former YC'er got kicked out for triggering other YC alum for saying "Build the Wall" - or we can go w/ Brendan Eich getting booted from Mozilla. The list can go on and on and on. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/04/mozilla-ceo-resignation-free-speech/7328759/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/04/mozill... https://www.facebook.com/garry/posts/10102671732962523?pnref=story https://www.facebook.com/garry/posts/10102671732962523?pnref...
  - tehwebguy 8y ago
    Is there some reason you got the impression that Torba was kicked "for saying build the wall" and not for being a huge jerk to people on social?
    - livestyle 8y ago
      "John Levy called me and said that because I said "build the wall" I am now removed from the network"
      - tehwebguy 8y ago
        “The main thing I want to get across here is: we believe that everyone is entitled to their political beliefs and they are welcome to support the political candidates of their choosing. Having an honest, rational dialogue between all parts of the political spectrum is going to be important for us as a country moving forward. But under no circumstances do we tolerate harassing or threatening other founders (or anyone for that matter). Regardless of what you believe, if you act in a hostile way that makes the community feel unsafe, you will be ejected from the YC community.” https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/12/pro-trump-ceo-gets-booted-from-y-combinator/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/12/pro-trump-ceo-gets-booted-...
  - chickenfries 8y ago
    Clearly it wasn't just saying "build the wall," from your own link: > All of you: fuck off. Take your morally superior, elitist, virtue signaling bullshit and shove it. > I call it like I see it, and I helped meme a President into office, cucks. > I could give a shit less about your respect for me or anyone else's. Build the wall is exactly what the fuck it means: build the wall. At almost any office job in America this is not an acceptable way to talk to your colleagues. At what programming job am I allowed to call people cucks for disagreeing with my politics?
- nostromo 8y ago
  Dean Mary Spellman at Claremont McKenna was forced out by an angry mob for writing an email to a Latina student in which she thanked the student for writing about her experience and expressed how she wants to further engage her. However, she apparently included a "microagression" when saying that the student didn't "fit the mold" of their traditional student. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-claremont-marches-20151112-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-claremont-marche... Here's the offending email: https://claremontindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/12238130_972503272791670_491597233384897364_o.jpg https://claremontindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/... Just recently, while he wasn't fired, Scott Kelly apologized to an angry mob for daring to quote Winston Churchill. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45789819 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45789819
- weberc2 8y ago
  The Christakises were driven out of Yale for politely suggesting that the university shouldn't police Halloween costumes. I'm not trivializing the offense either, the letter which caused the outrage is publicly available.
  - natestemen 8y ago
    im completely fine with getting rid of people who want to dress up as nazis for halloween.
- Zelphyr 8y ago
  I know two people who have been fired for saying things that are offensive but were innocently said. Meaning, they genuinely didn't understand that what they were saying was offensive to someone. In one case, that person was upset and ashamed of themselves for having possibly caused distress of people they respected. In another case, it caused them to dig their heels in to the opposite side of the debate. In both cases, I can't help but think those were great opportunities to educate those people. Pull them to the side and patiently say, "Hey, what you said was offensive and hurtful and here is why...". I'm certain that the one who dug in their heels would've received that conversation in a more constructive way. As it was, firing that person for such a relatively minor offense created a new Republican.
  - natestemen 8y ago
    to me, action matters more than intent. i understand sometimes people make mistakes, but sometimes those mistakes could've been avoided if they spent any time learning about current issues. in not spending time learning about these things they are putting themselves up to say some dumb shit. obviously its hard to say what should happen in these cases, and i do think we should try and educate people when they want, but its also not the job of marginalized people to educate others on how what they said was offensive.
    - Zelphyr 8y ago
      And that's fine. People should be held responsible for their actions. But my point is this; when the default is to use a machete when a scalpel would have sufficed then the net result is not going to pleasant.
weberc2 8y ago
I don't know of any such examples, and I am aware of a handful of examples of people being fired (or pushed out) for violating progressive mores.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > I am aware of a handful of examples of people being fired (or pushed out) for violating progressive mores. Care to name any examples? The only ones I can think of are well deserved (e.g. someone making racist comments and/or descriminating based on race, gender, etc)..
  - christophilus 8y ago
    Not the OP, but Brian McCall J.D was the Associate Dean of Academic Affairs at a law school in Oklahoma. He had to resign because of a book he wrote on Catholicism, even though his track record was impeccable by any standard.
    - mr_plow 8y ago
      He had to resign because he believes that women are not equal to men in society. For example: “Women must veil their form to obscure its contours out of charity towards men...To know that women in pants have this effect on men and to wear them is thus a sin against charity as well as modesty.” He calls a woman’s leaving the home to work “another false promise of the devil come to pass.” So no he did not resign because of a book he wrote on Catholicism, rather the beliefs he espoused in that book made his job untenable. How could any female student be judged fairly by an administrator who doesn't feel like they are meant to be in the workplace, or even wear pants?
  - weberc2 8y ago
    The Christakises, Bret Weinstein and his wife Heather Heying, James Damore, and Lindsey Shepherd (actually not sure if she was pushed out; she had the good sense to record her abuse which may have ultimately protected her). These are a few of the more egregious examples off the top of my head. EDIT: Brandan Eich and Lawrence Summers popped into my head as well.
simonsarris 8y ago
> Do you know any examples of people being fired from their jobs for criticizing the Iraq war in 2004? Phil Donahue's popular show was cancelled and he was therefore fired from MSNBC, because of Iraq war opposition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Donahue#MSNBC_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Donahue#MSNBC_program Ashleigh Banfield's career was derailed at NBC news and her profile lowered. They didn't fire her but what they did was truly shitty. She said: > I was office-less for ten months ... No phone, no computer. For ten months I had to report to work every day and ask where I could sit. ... I will never forgive him for his cruelty and the manner in which he decided to dispose of me. She eventually quit and joined CourtTV(?) because of it. And Chris Hedges at NYT maybe. Wiki: > Hedges was an early critic of the Iraq War. In May 2003, Hedges delivered a commencement address at Rockford College in Rockford, Illinois, saying: "We are embarking on an occupation that, if history is any guide, will be as damaging to our souls as it will be to our prestige and power and security."[24] His speech was received with boos and his microphone was shut off three minutes after he began speaking.[25] > The New York Times, his employer, criticized his statements and issued him a formal reprimand for "public remarks that could undermine public trust in the paper's impartiality".[26] Shortly after the incident, Hedges left The New York Times to become a senior fellow at The Nation Institute, and a columnist at Truthdig, in addition to writing books and teaching inmates at a New Jersey correctional institution. Not fired fired, but perhaps kicked out, or leaving before the axe came. A little more here: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/american-patriots-would-k_b_827000.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/american-patr... I'm sure there are other journalists I'm forgetting who were fired or had some level of career destruction because of their criticism. 2004 was a truly bad time to have interesting opinions plus a career on the line. And it feels like that again to be honest, though in very different areas.

by Meekro 8y ago

natestemen 8y ago

could you give some examples of people being fired for "relatively minor violations"?

dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
What about a Python conference and two guys joking about forking a repo?
- drewrv 8y ago
  The woman who called them out also got fired. And swarmed with rape/death threats too.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
    This doesn't change the fact much. Moreover, later it turned out she misunderstood the part about forking. Which leads to the question: do we accept the world in which someone can be fired because of a false accusation? Can we really call it “progressive”?
    - drewrv 8y ago
      It changes the narrative of "liberal bullies are ruining our dongle jokes". The fact that a woman was fired for trying to make our industry more inclusive shows we're not a leftie monoculture. The fact that she was subjected to rape and death threats shows there's a lot of toxic misogyny in our industry. It can be simultaneously true that people are afraid to talk because of SJWs criticizing them, and also they can be afraid to talk because right wing trolls will target them for harassment. Who in their right mind would want to risk being the next Zoë Quinn?
      - dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
        I agree both scenarios are toxic. But there might be a possibility worth considering that one fuels the other.
livestyle 8y ago
Andrew Torba former YC'er got kicked out for triggering other YC alum for saying "Build the Wall" - or we can go w/ Brendan Eich getting booted from Mozilla. The list can go on and on and on. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/04/mozilla-ceo-resignation-free-speech/7328759/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/04/mozill... https://www.facebook.com/garry/posts/10102671732962523?pnref=story https://www.facebook.com/garry/posts/10102671732962523?pnref...
- tehwebguy 8y ago
  Is there some reason you got the impression that Torba was kicked "for saying build the wall" and not for being a huge jerk to people on social?
  - livestyle 8y ago
    "John Levy called me and said that because I said "build the wall" I am now removed from the network"
    - tehwebguy 8y ago
      “The main thing I want to get across here is: we believe that everyone is entitled to their political beliefs and they are welcome to support the political candidates of their choosing. Having an honest, rational dialogue between all parts of the political spectrum is going to be important for us as a country moving forward. But under no circumstances do we tolerate harassing or threatening other founders (or anyone for that matter). Regardless of what you believe, if you act in a hostile way that makes the community feel unsafe, you will be ejected from the YC community.” https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/12/pro-trump-ceo-gets-booted-from-y-combinator/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/12/pro-trump-ceo-gets-booted-...
- chickenfries 8y ago
  Clearly it wasn't just saying "build the wall," from your own link: > All of you: fuck off. Take your morally superior, elitist, virtue signaling bullshit and shove it. > I call it like I see it, and I helped meme a President into office, cucks. > I could give a shit less about your respect for me or anyone else's. Build the wall is exactly what the fuck it means: build the wall. At almost any office job in America this is not an acceptable way to talk to your colleagues. At what programming job am I allowed to call people cucks for disagreeing with my politics?
nostromo 8y ago
Dean Mary Spellman at Claremont McKenna was forced out by an angry mob for writing an email to a Latina student in which she thanked the student for writing about her experience and expressed how she wants to further engage her. However, she apparently included a "microagression" when saying that the student didn't "fit the mold" of their traditional student. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-claremont-marches-20151112-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-claremont-marche... Here's the offending email: https://claremontindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/12238130_972503272791670_491597233384897364_o.jpg https://claremontindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/... Just recently, while he wasn't fired, Scott Kelly apologized to an angry mob for daring to quote Winston Churchill. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45789819 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45789819
weberc2 8y ago
The Christakises were driven out of Yale for politely suggesting that the university shouldn't police Halloween costumes. I'm not trivializing the offense either, the letter which caused the outrage is publicly available.
- natestemen 8y ago
  im completely fine with getting rid of people who want to dress up as nazis for halloween.
Zelphyr 8y ago
I know two people who have been fired for saying things that are offensive but were innocently said. Meaning, they genuinely didn't understand that what they were saying was offensive to someone. In one case, that person was upset and ashamed of themselves for having possibly caused distress of people they respected. In another case, it caused them to dig their heels in to the opposite side of the debate. In both cases, I can't help but think those were great opportunities to educate those people. Pull them to the side and patiently say, "Hey, what you said was offensive and hurtful and here is why...". I'm certain that the one who dug in their heels would've received that conversation in a more constructive way. As it was, firing that person for such a relatively minor offense created a new Republican.
- natestemen 8y ago
  to me, action matters more than intent. i understand sometimes people make mistakes, but sometimes those mistakes could've been avoided if they spent any time learning about current issues. in not spending time learning about these things they are putting themselves up to say some dumb shit. obviously its hard to say what should happen in these cases, and i do think we should try and educate people when they want, but its also not the job of marginalized people to educate others on how what they said was offensive.
  - Zelphyr 8y ago
    And that's fine. People should be held responsible for their actions. But my point is this; when the default is to use a machete when a scalpel would have sufficed then the net result is not going to pleasant.

weberc2 8y ago

I don't know of any such examples, and I am aware of a handful of examples of people being fired (or pushed out) for violating progressive mores.

craftyguy 8y ago
> I am aware of a handful of examples of people being fired (or pushed out) for violating progressive mores. Care to name any examples? The only ones I can think of are well deserved (e.g. someone making racist comments and/or descriminating based on race, gender, etc)..
- christophilus 8y ago
  Not the OP, but Brian McCall J.D was the Associate Dean of Academic Affairs at a law school in Oklahoma. He had to resign because of a book he wrote on Catholicism, even though his track record was impeccable by any standard.
  - mr_plow 8y ago
    He had to resign because he believes that women are not equal to men in society. For example: “Women must veil their form to obscure its contours out of charity towards men...To know that women in pants have this effect on men and to wear them is thus a sin against charity as well as modesty.” He calls a woman’s leaving the home to work “another false promise of the devil come to pass.” So no he did not resign because of a book he wrote on Catholicism, rather the beliefs he espoused in that book made his job untenable. How could any female student be judged fairly by an administrator who doesn't feel like they are meant to be in the workplace, or even wear pants?
- weberc2 8y ago
  The Christakises, Bret Weinstein and his wife Heather Heying, James Damore, and Lindsey Shepherd (actually not sure if she was pushed out; she had the good sense to record her abuse which may have ultimately protected her). These are a few of the more egregious examples off the top of my head. EDIT: Brandan Eich and Lawrence Summers popped into my head as well.

simonsarris 8y ago

> Do you know any examples of people being fired from their jobs for criticizing the Iraq war in 2004? Phil Donahue's popular show was cancelled and he was therefore fired from MSNBC, because of Iraq war opposition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Donahue#MSNBC_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Donahue#MSNBC_program Ashleigh Banfield's career was derailed at NBC news and her profile lowered. They didn't fire her but what they did was truly shitty. She said: > I was office-less for ten months ... No phone, no computer. For ten months I had to report to work every day and ask where I could sit. ... I will never forgive him for his cruelty and the manner in which he decided to dispose of me. She eventually quit and joined CourtTV(?) because of it. And Chris Hedges at NYT maybe. Wiki: > Hedges was an early critic of the Iraq War. In May 2003, Hedges delivered a commencement address at Rockford College in Rockford, Illinois, saying: "We are embarking on an occupation that, if history is any guide, will be as damaging to our souls as it will be to our prestige and power and security."[24] His speech was received with boos and his microphone was shut off three minutes after he began speaking.[25] > The New York Times, his employer, criticized his statements and issued him a formal reprimand for "public remarks that could undermine public trust in the paper's impartiality".[26] Shortly after the incident, Hedges left The New York Times to become a senior fellow at The Nation Institute, and a columnist at Truthdig, in addition to writing books and teaching inmates at a New Jersey correctional institution. Not fired fired, but perhaps kicked out, or leaving before the axe came. A little more here: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/american-patriots-would-k_b_827000.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/american-patr... I'm sure there are other journalists I'm forgetting who were fired or had some level of career destruction because of their criticism. 2004 was a truly bad time to have interesting opinions plus a career on the line. And it feels like that again to be honest, though in very different areas.