6 ms·

The annoying thing about these investigations is that they disproportionately target laft wing groups while leaving right wing groups to organise more successfu

The annoying thing about these investigations is that they disproportionately target laft wing groups while leaving right wing groups to organise more successfully. And we wonder why right wing populism is on the rise. I don't know about the UK but there are a lot of ties between police and right wing nationalism/extremism in the US. I wouldn't be surprised if it were similar over there. Other comments here are stating that it is perfectly acceptable to stop groups that hope to undermine the government. Yet less focus is put on how much effort these governments have put into undermining other foreign democracies. If such powerful institutions can wreak havoc abroad and turn a blind eye to right wing injustices and other problems (poverty, public health etc.) at home, while not really providing a well-functioning system for changing itself (i.e. electoral party politics), perhaps they really should be challenged.

olau 8y ago
> The annoying thing about these investigations is that they disproportionately target left wing groups while leaving right wing groups to organise more successfully. One way to put it is: You'd expect a well-functioning spy organisation to select its monitoring targets in an objective manner based on threat level. Are these targets then the result of objective evaluations? Can the apparent skew be explained that way? If not, it points to a dysfunctional spy organisation.
- snackbugs 8y ago
  Right wing and white supremacist groups exist to further societal sorting and ethnic cleansing implicitly and explicitly depending on the values of the particular group. To not see this as immediately threatening to the safety of pluralities of people is absolutely a subjective evaluation. I personally don't think any state spy organization is funded or directed by people making objective decisions. They're not technocratic institutions, even if it feels nice to imagine they are.
  - tracker1 8y ago
    That is a rather blanket statement... it's much like saying "Left wing and socialist groups exist to commit genocide against those that would otherwise rebel and to coerce the populace into submission." It seems to me that the police in question have targeted those groups most likely to insight violent acts. The leftist groups are not innocent, and neither are the right. There are limited resources and those most significant threats need to be targeted first. As a more libertarian minded person, I see a lot of those outspoken are often lumped in with the "right wing" groups you mention, and that broad brush you speak with does nothing to create progress or foster open discussion.
    - snackbugs 8y ago
      Libertarian is strictly and accurately characterized as right wing, whether you like the aesthetics and baggage of that or not. Which right wing groups are not advocating for things that actively harm working people and minorities? Which leftist groups are out to harm entire pluralities of people out of indifference (at best) or cruelty (at worst)? I'm asking in good faith because I honestly don't know what groups are being referred to when people say "neither side is innocent". I don't see the dichotomy that is being constructed with this argument.
      - tracker1 8y ago
        Is your implication that all right-wing groups are seeking genocide, or otherwise trying to segregate or exclude based on gender, race or religion? I don't think that would come close to applying to even a majority. I would say the Libertarian Party is not advocating for things that actively harm working people and minorities. Libertarians are in favor of equality in opportunity. For that matter, there's no clear consensus that what most left-wing groups propose doesn't advocate for things that actively harm working people and minorities. Beyond this, groups like ANTIFA typically target violence at those who are not promoting racism, segregation or discrimination on the basis of gender, race or religion. The most violent left-wing groups tend to be environmental and animal rights groups. Not to mention, so often in recent years it's the left that seeks to silence, censor, shut down and drown out differing opinions in the face of intelligent discussion. One of the most prominent examples would be Ben Shapiro, who has never advocated for violence, and has been a significant target of both the ALT-Right movement as well as the left. The opportunity for rational discussion is lost when ideologues are so closed minded as to not even be able to listen or consider that they may be wrong. One must ALWAYS consider that you, yourself are wrong as a possibility when trying to push an agenda that would affect everyone.
- kiliantics 8y ago
  From the perspective of the state, left wing organisations are a threat. Right wing organisations actually help the state in consolidating power. From the perspective of minorities on the other hand... The point is that the police clearly serve the state and not the people.
beaconstudios 8y ago
I would be extremely surprised if the UK police hasn't infiltrated the EDL, Britain First, PEGIDA, and so on.
- toyg 8y ago
  Historically, the opposite is actually more likely (i.e. that EDL and friends have infiltrated the police).
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    I presume it happens both ways with both far left and right organisations. I mean that's the nature of espionage, right?
    - toyg 8y ago
      From an historical perspective, far-left organizations are much more unlikely to infiltrate police authorities than far-right organizations are. The strong sense of order and discipline that such authorities enforce among their ranks, are a much more natural fit in the far-right, at least in Europe.

olau 8y ago

> The annoying thing about these investigations is that they disproportionately target left wing groups while leaving right wing groups to organise more successfully. One way to put it is: You'd expect a well-functioning spy organisation to select its monitoring targets in an objective manner based on threat level. Are these targets then the result of objective evaluations? Can the apparent skew be explained that way? If not, it points to a dysfunctional spy organisation.

snackbugs 8y ago
Right wing and white supremacist groups exist to further societal sorting and ethnic cleansing implicitly and explicitly depending on the values of the particular group. To not see this as immediately threatening to the safety of pluralities of people is absolutely a subjective evaluation. I personally don't think any state spy organization is funded or directed by people making objective decisions. They're not technocratic institutions, even if it feels nice to imagine they are.
- tracker1 8y ago
  That is a rather blanket statement... it's much like saying "Left wing and socialist groups exist to commit genocide against those that would otherwise rebel and to coerce the populace into submission." It seems to me that the police in question have targeted those groups most likely to insight violent acts. The leftist groups are not innocent, and neither are the right. There are limited resources and those most significant threats need to be targeted first. As a more libertarian minded person, I see a lot of those outspoken are often lumped in with the "right wing" groups you mention, and that broad brush you speak with does nothing to create progress or foster open discussion.
  - snackbugs 8y ago
    Libertarian is strictly and accurately characterized as right wing, whether you like the aesthetics and baggage of that or not. Which right wing groups are not advocating for things that actively harm working people and minorities? Which leftist groups are out to harm entire pluralities of people out of indifference (at best) or cruelty (at worst)? I'm asking in good faith because I honestly don't know what groups are being referred to when people say "neither side is innocent". I don't see the dichotomy that is being constructed with this argument.
    - tracker1 8y ago
      Is your implication that all right-wing groups are seeking genocide, or otherwise trying to segregate or exclude based on gender, race or religion? I don't think that would come close to applying to even a majority. I would say the Libertarian Party is not advocating for things that actively harm working people and minorities. Libertarians are in favor of equality in opportunity. For that matter, there's no clear consensus that what most left-wing groups propose doesn't advocate for things that actively harm working people and minorities. Beyond this, groups like ANTIFA typically target violence at those who are not promoting racism, segregation or discrimination on the basis of gender, race or religion. The most violent left-wing groups tend to be environmental and animal rights groups. Not to mention, so often in recent years it's the left that seeks to silence, censor, shut down and drown out differing opinions in the face of intelligent discussion. One of the most prominent examples would be Ben Shapiro, who has never advocated for violence, and has been a significant target of both the ALT-Right movement as well as the left. The opportunity for rational discussion is lost when ideologues are so closed minded as to not even be able to listen or consider that they may be wrong. One must ALWAYS consider that you, yourself are wrong as a possibility when trying to push an agenda that would affect everyone.
kiliantics 8y ago
From the perspective of the state, left wing organisations are a threat. Right wing organisations actually help the state in consolidating power. From the perspective of minorities on the other hand... The point is that the police clearly serve the state and not the people.

beaconstudios 8y ago

I would be extremely surprised if the UK police hasn't infiltrated the EDL, Britain First, PEGIDA, and so on.

toyg 8y ago
Historically, the opposite is actually more likely (i.e. that EDL and friends have infiltrated the police).
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  I presume it happens both ways with both far left and right organisations. I mean that's the nature of espionage, right?
  - toyg 8y ago
    From an historical perspective, far-left organizations are much more unlikely to infiltrate police authorities than far-right organizations are. The strong sense of order and discipline that such authorities enforce among their ranks, are a much more natural fit in the far-right, at least in Europe.