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Given the cozy relationship between the Chinese government and Chinese telecoms, it's probably best to avoid any Chinese made electronics for infrastructure, if

Given the cozy relationship between the Chinese government and Chinese telecoms, it's probably best to avoid any Chinese made electronics for infrastructure, if possible. Chinese military agents are even implicated in attacks on Western companies to help their own corporations. The scale at which companies work with the government and how the government funds companies makes it very hard to trust any Chinese company.

endorphone 8y ago
Fair points, but you can search/replace Chinese with American and the statements are arguably as true. From cozy relationships to telecoms, to compromising electronics for their own ends, to engaging in industrial espionage for US organizations (including against companies of allies -- the CIA and NSA are both engaged in economic espionage, and share useful information with corporate partners). It is a bit strange seeing the US yelling the warnings about China when really they just gained a peer doing the same things.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > you can search/replace Chinese with American and the statements are arguably as true Not really. American companies can and do defy the American executive branch. Rule of law and an independent judiciary are things in America. They are not in China.
  - endorphone 8y ago
    Rule of law and an independent judiciary are things in America A rule of law that is profoundly flexible to achieve whatever the US government wants to do. From secret courts and directives that you can't talk about, to the wholesale capture of telco traffic (with telco complicity, of course). And that rule of law allows the massive US intelligence establishment to do virtually anything internationally (which is the context that we're talking about), from sabotaging systems, performing economic espionage and stealing trade secrets, to murder. Virtually the same trappings and illusions of controls exist in China as well. Both countries do the same thing, and to an international country are interchangeable. The overall context to these discussions, however, is that the US is somehow good and China is somehow bad, so it's different.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > Virtually the same trappings and illusions of controls exist in China as well Secret courts are a shame. Secret directives, on the other hand, can be compatible with the rule of law and an independent judiciary, provided they're lawfully authorized and can be challenged in a court. At the end of the day, a private citizen (or foreign government) can challenge the U.S. government on equal grounds in a fair court. That is not the case in China.
      - jtregunna 8y ago
        > Secret courts are a shame. Secret directives, on the other hand, can be compatible with the rule of law and an independent judiciary, provided they're lawfully authorized and can be challenged in a court. I presume you also forgot to add this before challenged in a court... > ..., whistleblowers are protected, and can be ... You see, because that's the thing with secret directives, they're redacted from the public eye. The only way we get visibility into them isn't with FOIA requests, it's with whistleblowers who feel the government is doing things wrong, and if they're not protected, they rarely come forward.
- jorblumesea 8y ago
  This attitude represents a fundamental misunderstanding about how China works and Chinese attitudes. For westerners, it is hard to understand how interconnected governments and businesses are in mainland China. China is the most opaque business world we can imagine and Chinese military intelligence has deep connections to Chinese businesses. It paints itself as a free market economy but it is highly controlled and authoritarian. The West has this to some extent, but not at the same scale or connections. US companies are far more independent.

endorphone 8y ago

Fair points, but you can search/replace Chinese with American and the statements are arguably as true. From cozy relationships to telecoms, to compromising electronics for their own ends, to engaging in industrial espionage for US organizations (including against companies of allies -- the CIA and NSA are both engaged in economic espionage, and share useful information with corporate partners). It is a bit strange seeing the US yelling the warnings about China when really they just gained a peer doing the same things.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> you can search/replace Chinese with American and the statements are arguably as true Not really. American companies can and do defy the American executive branch. Rule of law and an independent judiciary are things in America. They are not in China.
- endorphone 8y ago
  Rule of law and an independent judiciary are things in America A rule of law that is profoundly flexible to achieve whatever the US government wants to do. From secret courts and directives that you can't talk about, to the wholesale capture of telco traffic (with telco complicity, of course). And that rule of law allows the massive US intelligence establishment to do virtually anything internationally (which is the context that we're talking about), from sabotaging systems, performing economic espionage and stealing trade secrets, to murder. Virtually the same trappings and illusions of controls exist in China as well. Both countries do the same thing, and to an international country are interchangeable. The overall context to these discussions, however, is that the US is somehow good and China is somehow bad, so it's different.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > Virtually the same trappings and illusions of controls exist in China as well Secret courts are a shame. Secret directives, on the other hand, can be compatible with the rule of law and an independent judiciary, provided they're lawfully authorized and can be challenged in a court. At the end of the day, a private citizen (or foreign government) can challenge the U.S. government on equal grounds in a fair court. That is not the case in China.
    - jtregunna 8y ago
      > Secret courts are a shame. Secret directives, on the other hand, can be compatible with the rule of law and an independent judiciary, provided they're lawfully authorized and can be challenged in a court. I presume you also forgot to add this before challenged in a court... > ..., whistleblowers are protected, and can be ... You see, because that's the thing with secret directives, they're redacted from the public eye. The only way we get visibility into them isn't with FOIA requests, it's with whistleblowers who feel the government is doing things wrong, and if they're not protected, they rarely come forward.
jorblumesea 8y ago
This attitude represents a fundamental misunderstanding about how China works and Chinese attitudes. For westerners, it is hard to understand how interconnected governments and businesses are in mainland China. China is the most opaque business world we can imagine and Chinese military intelligence has deep connections to Chinese businesses. It paints itself as a free market economy but it is highly controlled and authoritarian. The West has this to some extent, but not at the same scale or connections. US companies are far more independent.