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My Fiancé Jamal Khashoggi Was a Lonely Patriot

88 points by rasengan 8y ago

AndyMcConachie 8y ago
This is the same newspaper where Thomas Friedman writes gushing editorials about the reformer MBS. Make up your mind NYT. Am I supposed to love or hate the Saudis? I'm sure Raytheon still wants to sell some missiles to the Saudis, as there's still plenty of money to be made killing Yemenis. Kinda sucks for Raytheon that the NYT can't paint the Saudis as wonderous reformers anymore. We have always been at war with Oceania.
- el_benhameen 8y ago
  Thomas Friedman writes op-eds. The op article is also an op-ed. I don’t necessarily agree with Friedman on MBS, but it seems to me that divergent op-eds are a sign of an editorial section that promotes healthy debate. A single-sided editorial section with its “mind made up” isn’t something useful or worth reading to me.
- farseer 8y ago
  If the platform gives space to lunatics, I want lunatics of all shapes, size and spectrum on there. This is a strength of NY times, not something to criticize.
ReptileMan 8y ago
He was also most probably involved with Saudi intelligence, at least an asset. You don't become friends with the chief of intelligence and he does not push you up the career just because. He was and insider with access. You cannot call it quits and leave the game. I think is outrage is overplayed. And his sanctification. This is part of the story that is often overlooked. He may have had dangerous knowledge or bailed on stuff he was supposed to do.
mudil 8y ago
It is true that Khashoggi likely was a much more complicated figure than just some sort of Western-oriented Saudi dissident and a journalist. He was a member of Muslim Brotherhood. He was likely a player with the Saudi intelligence. Here's a link to a widely quoted piece from John R. Bradley at The Spectator. And Bradley is someone who actually worked and knew Khashoggi very well. Judge for yourself: https://spectator.us/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi/ https://spectator.us/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi/
- xrd 8y ago
  Wow, that's a whole different perspective, and sounds very credible. Indeed, none of the reporting so far has given any indication why he would have become an enemy all of a sudden, but this article makes a clear case for why.
- anon7429 8y ago
  That's a lot of if's with zero evidence.
- atomical 8y ago
  "In Washington in 2005, a senior Pentagon official told me of a ridiculous plan they had to take ‘the Saudi out of Arabia’ (as was the rage post-9/11). It involved establishing a council of selected Saudi figures in Mecca to govern the country under US auspices after the US took control of the oil. He named three Saudis the Pentagon team were in regular contact with regarding the project. One of them was Khashoggi. A fantasy, certainly, but it shows how highly he was regarded by those imagining a different Saudi Arabia." Sounds like a story full of conspiratorial fiction.
- thiagocsf 8y ago
  Tl;dr: Khashoggi had 9/11 dirt on Saudis and had recently founded a political party that runs against bin Salman’s vision.
diminish 8y ago
I don't remember any prominent consulate killing during the cold war as a fan of John le Carré novels. Maybe they were covered by Soviets and the West? Are there any other examples of consular services being used to trap and punish opposition, except the Saudi Khashoggi case in Saudi Arabia's Istanbul consulate?
- walrus01 8y ago
  Not directly at a consulate, that I can recall, but having consular officials on diplomatic status in an adversary nation who are actually intelligence agency operatives was, and is, a pretty commonplace practice.
- bayesian_horse 8y ago
  Apparently they didn't bother to do that in a consulate. Come to think of it, Putin doesn't seem to bother with such pretenses right now. The Skripal suspects didn't even have diplomatic identities...
  - praptak 8y ago
    It's the other way. The Saudis didn't bother to do that in a way that at least gives the perpetrators plausible deniability. Putin's thugs at least put some effort to cover their tracks.
    - bayesian_horse 8y ago
      They may have overestimated their ability to convince people he left the consulate. They may have tried to detain and abduct him. Maybe they even needed some valuable information from him and he died under torture. There are a lot of possible explanations beyond simply "they lured him to the consolate to kill him". Most of these explanations aren't a whole lot better than that, but these would explain why this all looks so chaotic or amateurish.
- praptak 8y ago
  They had resources to kill or kidnap their targets in a way that creates much less problems than a murder in a consulate.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
anon7429 8y ago
Boycott, Divest, Sanction Saudi Arabia and America too... they're tribal, rogue nations whose main exports are pollution and genocide
bayesian_horse 8y ago
Apparently he also was part of the security aparatus in Saudi Arabia. Not meant as an excuse or an explanation, but important to keep in mind.
- pas 8y ago
  > Apparently Could you provide some links that detail how we know that?
eksemplar 8y ago
I wonder how this plays in tech, slack is backed by Saudis for instance, and that’s a reason why we never started using it, despite a lot of young developers liking it. Of course we’re the public sector, so we probably see more political motivations in our choices of tech, but I think it is interesting when your investors become a liability.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Do you have a source that Slack is backed by Saudis? I find Slack worrisome since all data is centralised and can be read by Slack. And we do that for discussion of development no less! Such discussion should be held in private. Its questionable whether management of a company should be able to read such a papertrail (there are pros and cons) but I don't see pros for a third party reading such. Especially not such massive amount.
  - ChanderG 8y ago
    https://www.recode.net/2017/9/18/16317902/uber-softbank-vision-fund-big-investment-saudi-arab-emirates-apple-qualcomm-sharp https://www.recode.net/2017/9/18/16317902/uber-softbank-visi... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-softbank-shares/softbank-shares-fall-55-percent-as-saudi-ties-cause-concern-idUSKCN1MP05F https://www.reuters.com/article/us-softbank-shares/softbank-...

88 points by rasengan 8y ago

This is the same newspaper where Thomas Friedman writes gushing editorials about the reformer MBS. Make up your mind NYT. Am I supposed to love or hate the Saudis? I'm sure Raytheon still wants to sell some missiles to the Saudis, as there's still plenty of money to be made killing Yemenis. Kinda sucks for Raytheon that the NYT can't paint the Saudis as wonderous reformers anymore. We have always been at war with Oceania.

el_benhameen 8y ago
Thomas Friedman writes op-eds. The op article is also an op-ed. I don’t necessarily agree with Friedman on MBS, but it seems to me that divergent op-eds are a sign of an editorial section that promotes healthy debate. A single-sided editorial section with its “mind made up” isn’t something useful or worth reading to me.
farseer 8y ago
If the platform gives space to lunatics, I want lunatics of all shapes, size and spectrum on there. This is a strength of NY times, not something to criticize.

ReptileMan 8y ago

He was also most probably involved with Saudi intelligence, at least an asset. You don't become friends with the chief of intelligence and he does not push you up the career just because. He was and insider with access. You cannot call it quits and leave the game. I think is outrage is overplayed. And his sanctification. This is part of the story that is often overlooked. He may have had dangerous knowledge or bailed on stuff he was supposed to do.

mudil 8y ago

It is true that Khashoggi likely was a much more complicated figure than just some sort of Western-oriented Saudi dissident and a journalist. He was a member of Muslim Brotherhood. He was likely a player with the Saudi intelligence. Here's a link to a widely quoted piece from John R. Bradley at The Spectator. And Bradley is someone who actually worked and knew Khashoggi very well. Judge for yourself: https://spectator.us/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi/ https://spectator.us/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi/

xrd 8y ago
Wow, that's a whole different perspective, and sounds very credible. Indeed, none of the reporting so far has given any indication why he would have become an enemy all of a sudden, but this article makes a clear case for why.
anon7429 8y ago
That's a lot of if's with zero evidence.
atomical 8y ago
"In Washington in 2005, a senior Pentagon official told me of a ridiculous plan they had to take ‘the Saudi out of Arabia’ (as was the rage post-9/11). It involved establishing a council of selected Saudi figures in Mecca to govern the country under US auspices after the US took control of the oil. He named three Saudis the Pentagon team were in regular contact with regarding the project. One of them was Khashoggi. A fantasy, certainly, but it shows how highly he was regarded by those imagining a different Saudi Arabia." Sounds like a story full of conspiratorial fiction.
thiagocsf 8y ago
Tl;dr: Khashoggi had 9/11 dirt on Saudis and had recently founded a political party that runs against bin Salman’s vision.

diminish 8y ago

I don't remember any prominent consulate killing during the cold war as a fan of John le Carré novels. Maybe they were covered by Soviets and the West? Are there any other examples of consular services being used to trap and punish opposition, except the Saudi Khashoggi case in Saudi Arabia's Istanbul consulate?

walrus01 8y ago
Not directly at a consulate, that I can recall, but having consular officials on diplomatic status in an adversary nation who are actually intelligence agency operatives was, and is, a pretty commonplace practice.
bayesian_horse 8y ago
Apparently they didn't bother to do that in a consulate. Come to think of it, Putin doesn't seem to bother with such pretenses right now. The Skripal suspects didn't even have diplomatic identities...
- praptak 8y ago
  It's the other way. The Saudis didn't bother to do that in a way that at least gives the perpetrators plausible deniability. Putin's thugs at least put some effort to cover their tracks.
  - bayesian_horse 8y ago
    They may have overestimated their ability to convince people he left the consulate. They may have tried to detain and abduct him. Maybe they even needed some valuable information from him and he died under torture. There are a lot of possible explanations beyond simply "they lured him to the consolate to kill him". Most of these explanations aren't a whole lot better than that, but these would explain why this all looks so chaotic or amateurish.
praptak 8y ago
They had resources to kill or kidnap their targets in a way that creates much less problems than a murder in a consulate.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

anon7429 8y ago

Boycott, Divest, Sanction Saudi Arabia and America too... they're tribal, rogue nations whose main exports are pollution and genocide

bayesian_horse 8y ago

Apparently he also was part of the security aparatus in Saudi Arabia. Not meant as an excuse or an explanation, but important to keep in mind.

pas 8y ago
> Apparently Could you provide some links that detail how we know that?

eksemplar 8y ago

I wonder how this plays in tech, slack is backed by Saudis for instance, and that’s a reason why we never started using it, despite a lot of young developers liking it. Of course we’re the public sector, so we probably see more political motivations in our choices of tech, but I think it is interesting when your investors become a liability.

Fnoord 8y ago
Do you have a source that Slack is backed by Saudis? I find Slack worrisome since all data is centralised and can be read by Slack. And we do that for discussion of development no less! Such discussion should be held in private. Its questionable whether management of a company should be able to read such a papertrail (there are pros and cons) but I don't see pros for a third party reading such. Especially not such massive amount.
- ChanderG 8y ago
  https://www.recode.net/2017/9/18/16317902/uber-softbank-vision-fund-big-investment-saudi-arab-emirates-apple-qualcomm-sharp https://www.recode.net/2017/9/18/16317902/uber-softbank-visi... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-softbank-shares/softbank-shares-fall-55-percent-as-saudi-ties-cause-concern-idUSKCN1MP05F https://www.reuters.com/article/us-softbank-shares/softbank-...