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Military Leaders Are Starting to Freak Out Over Russia’s Info Warfare Dominance

18 points by supercanuck 8y ago

random_upvoter 8y ago
What worries me more than a bunch of trolls in Moscow is this fashionable belief in the West that democracy cannot work because people are idiots whose vote can be turned by a meme on Facebook. If people didn't vote for your party, it's because people were not attracted by your party, mkay?
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > fashionable belief in the West that democracy cannot work because people are idiots whose vote can be turned by a meme on Facebook. Eh, it's more than people are suseptible to confirmation bias, and the meme ads on facebook re-enforce the beliefs imparted upon them by <insert preferred single "news" source here>. > If people didn't vote for your party, it's because people were not attracted by your party, mkay? May the most entertaining party win!
baybal2 8y ago
And what so? Western countries are free democracies that don't spend 1 billion buck a year on propaganda, sedition, sabotage and subversion. The West has no need to resort to underhanded tricks, and should not resort to a mirror version of Russian information warfare.
- throwaway8879 8y ago
  That's how you lose a war, whether it be a conventional one or a geopolitical one.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    People with moral integrity win wars against ones without, will keyboard warriors stand the ground when confronted by an enemy paratrooper pointing a rifle on them, or will they prostrate and beg mercy saying "I only edited articles"...
    - drosan 8y ago
      It doesn't work like that btw :D
- maltalex 8y ago
  > Western countries are free democracies that don't spend 1 billion buck a year on propaganda, sedition, sabotage and subversion Right. Have you looked at the CIA's budget lately? How about the MI6?
- ionised 8y ago
  > The West has no need to resort to underhanded tricks History suggests otherwise.
awkim 8y ago
"Put simply, Russia seems to be playing chess, while the U.S. is trying to figure out how to set up the board to play checkers." This doesn't surprise me as they need to play on an asymmetrical board.
Tempest1981 8y ago
Meanwhile, the US government is pushing toward cloud computing. I hope they know how to make it secure.
- acct1771 8y ago
  They don't. That's why they're passing the buck to someone who can.
elipsey 8y ago
“The Russians are really good at this. Better than us" I disagree. US LE and intelligence services are at least as good at subverting the security of US information systems as Russians. State and local governments have taken all practical and legal measures to make it worse for my entire life by: --banning and nerfing crypto (from the old export ban to present), --hoarding vulnerabilities, --prosecuting whistle-blowers who threaten to embarrass large companies, --chilling research with vague and draconian hacking laws (CFAA), --turning an indifferent eye to dangerously invalid security assumptions underlying telecom, payment systems, data brokers (cellular, ACH, CC/MCVISA, Experian et. all) --and then getting into turf wars over who gets to exploit those defective systems in secret... ...and just hoping no one outside our jurisdiction will notice. The military has made mistakes like this too. Remember that time that they used unencrypted video transmission for the MQ-9 predator drone? Someone noticed.* The strategy that “the best defense is a good offense” is probably not appropriate for information security. Part of this is an economic problem as described, for example, by Schneier in his recent Op-Ed. There is little short term incentive for vendors to accept the opportunity cost of building secure systems; if you can’t write it yourself a parade of ethically questionable, bumbling contractors (HBGary?) will sell you after the fact solutions. Hopefully the US military takes it’s own operational security seriously enough to keep soldiers from carrying off-the-shelf commercial cell phones, as the Ukrainians reportedly did. Maybe this is harder than it sounds; it’s apparently hard even to keep presidents from trying to do this. It appears demonstrably unrealistic to expect that government personnel will remain unaffected by the insecure systems used by unwashed masses of civilians. The actual attacks discussed in the article are mostly against large scale public infrastructure. The root of these problems is not really something you can shoot at. The article offers a number of quotes like the following, by Major General Gedney: “It’s got to be operationalized down into a genuine multi-domain battle.” I really have no idea what this means, but I sure hope it means “instead of government agencies undermining civilian infosec and then using the vulnerabilities to advance our parochial interests, let’s help the private sector fix it, or at least get out of the way.” * “In 2009, it was discovered that insurgents successfully intercepted video feeds from unmanned platforms using cheap software to exploit the use of unencrypted data links between the unmanned system and the ground control station.” RAND Corporation. 2014. (https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR600/RR626/RAND_RR626.pdf https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/...) ‘Internet Hacking Is About to Get Much Worse’. Schneier. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/11/opinion/internet-hacking-cybersecurity-iot.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/11/opinion/internet-hacking-...
chriselles 8y ago
Truth was an effective weapon in the Cold War. Fake news seems to be effective in Cold War 2. Hopefully the efficacy of truth outweighs fake news moving forward.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  'fake news' really isn't a new creation. Propoganda was an effective weapon in the Cold War, both world wars, and a staple of politics since, well, forever.

18 points by supercanuck 8y ago

What worries me more than a bunch of trolls in Moscow is this fashionable belief in the West that democracy cannot work because people are idiots whose vote can be turned by a meme on Facebook. If people didn't vote for your party, it's because people were not attracted by your party, mkay?

craftyguy 8y ago
> fashionable belief in the West that democracy cannot work because people are idiots whose vote can be turned by a meme on Facebook. Eh, it's more than people are suseptible to confirmation bias, and the meme ads on facebook re-enforce the beliefs imparted upon them by <insert preferred single "news" source here>. > If people didn't vote for your party, it's because people were not attracted by your party, mkay? May the most entertaining party win!

baybal2 8y ago

And what so? Western countries are free democracies that don't spend 1 billion buck a year on propaganda, sedition, sabotage and subversion. The West has no need to resort to underhanded tricks, and should not resort to a mirror version of Russian information warfare.

throwaway8879 8y ago
That's how you lose a war, whether it be a conventional one or a geopolitical one.
- baybal2 8y ago
  People with moral integrity win wars against ones without, will keyboard warriors stand the ground when confronted by an enemy paratrooper pointing a rifle on them, or will they prostrate and beg mercy saying "I only edited articles"...
  - drosan 8y ago
    It doesn't work like that btw :D
maltalex 8y ago
> Western countries are free democracies that don't spend 1 billion buck a year on propaganda, sedition, sabotage and subversion Right. Have you looked at the CIA's budget lately? How about the MI6?
ionised 8y ago
> The West has no need to resort to underhanded tricks History suggests otherwise.

awkim 8y ago

"Put simply, Russia seems to be playing chess, while the U.S. is trying to figure out how to set up the board to play checkers." This doesn't surprise me as they need to play on an asymmetrical board.

Tempest1981 8y ago

Meanwhile, the US government is pushing toward cloud computing. I hope they know how to make it secure.

acct1771 8y ago
They don't. That's why they're passing the buck to someone who can.

elipsey 8y ago

“The Russians are really good at this. Better than us" I disagree. US LE and intelligence services are at least as good at subverting the security of US information systems as Russians. State and local governments have taken all practical and legal measures to make it worse for my entire life by: --banning and nerfing crypto (from the old export ban to present), --hoarding vulnerabilities, --prosecuting whistle-blowers who threaten to embarrass large companies, --chilling research with vague and draconian hacking laws (CFAA), --turning an indifferent eye to dangerously invalid security assumptions underlying telecom, payment systems, data brokers (cellular, ACH, CC/MCVISA, Experian et. all) --and then getting into turf wars over who gets to exploit those defective systems in secret... ...and just hoping no one outside our jurisdiction will notice. The military has made mistakes like this too. Remember that time that they used unencrypted video transmission for the MQ-9 predator drone? Someone noticed.* The strategy that “the best defense is a good offense” is probably not appropriate for information security. Part of this is an economic problem as described, for example, by Schneier in his recent Op-Ed. There is little short term incentive for vendors to accept the opportunity cost of building secure systems; if you can’t write it yourself a parade of ethically questionable, bumbling contractors (HBGary?) will sell you after the fact solutions. Hopefully the US military takes it’s own operational security seriously enough to keep soldiers from carrying off-the-shelf commercial cell phones, as the Ukrainians reportedly did. Maybe this is harder than it sounds; it’s apparently hard even to keep presidents from trying to do this. It appears demonstrably unrealistic to expect that government personnel will remain unaffected by the insecure systems used by unwashed masses of civilians. The actual attacks discussed in the article are mostly against large scale public infrastructure. The root of these problems is not really something you can shoot at. The article offers a number of quotes like the following, by Major General Gedney: “It’s got to be operationalized down into a genuine multi-domain battle.” I really have no idea what this means, but I sure hope it means “instead of government agencies undermining civilian infosec and then using the vulnerabilities to advance our parochial interests, let’s help the private sector fix it, or at least get out of the way.” * “In 2009, it was discovered that insurgents successfully intercepted video feeds from unmanned platforms using cheap software to exploit the use of unencrypted data links between the unmanned system and the ground control station.” RAND Corporation. 2014. (https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR600/RR626/RAND_RR626.pdf https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/...) ‘Internet Hacking Is About to Get Much Worse’. Schneier. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/11/opinion/internet-hacking-cybersecurity-iot.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/11/opinion/internet-hacking-...

chriselles 8y ago

Truth was an effective weapon in the Cold War. Fake news seems to be effective in Cold War 2. Hopefully the efficacy of truth outweighs fake news moving forward.

craftyguy 8y ago
'fake news' really isn't a new creation. Propoganda was an effective weapon in the Cold War, both world wars, and a staple of politics since, well, forever.