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Lucian also wrote the earliest known version of The Sorcerer's Apprentice, which I view as the ur-example of an "AI rebellion" storyline. A programmer is harmed

Lucian also wrote the earliest known version of The Sorcerer's Apprentice, which I view as the ur-example of an "AI rebellion" storyline. A programmer is harmed by their creation not because it goes against their orders but because it follows their orders to a much greater extent than they were anticipating.

charmides 8y ago
This is fascinating. I never heard about this.
shas3 8y ago
This is bogus. Abhimanyu’s story in Mahabharatha and Sanjiva’s story from Buddhist Jataka tales both predate Lucian and are both Sorcerer’s Apprentice type tales.
- Isamu 8y ago
  Interesting, could you post one of them? The version from Lucian is as follows: “Whenever we came to an inn, he used to take up the bar of the door, or a broom, or perhaps a pestle, dress it up in clothes, and utter a certain incantation; whereupon the thing would begin to walk about, so that every one took it for a man. It would go off and draw water, buy and cook provisions, and make itself generally useful. When we had no further occasion for its services, there was another incantation, after which the broom was a broom once more, or the pestle a pestle. I could never get him to teach me this incantation, though it was not for want of trying; open as he was about everything else, he guarded this one secret jealously. At last one day I hid in a dark corner, and overheard the magic syllables; they were three in number. The Egyptian gave the pestle its instructions, and then went off to the market. Well, next day he was again busy in the market: so I took the pestle, dressed it, pronounced the three syllables exactly as he had done, and ordered it to become a water-carrier. It brought me the pitcher full; and then I said: Stop: be water-carrier no longer, but pestle as heretofore. But the thing would take no notice of me: it went on drawing water the whole time, until at last the house was full of it. This was awkward: if Pancrates came back, he would be angry, I thought (and so indeed it turned out). I took an axe, and cut the pestle in two. The result was that both halves took pitchers and fetched water; I had two water-carriers instead of one. This was still going on, when Pancrates appeared. He saw how things stood, and turned the water-carriers back into wood; and then he withdrew himself from me, and went away, whither I knew not.”
  - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
    Not the OP, but I was curious so I read a bit about Abhimanyu and Sañjīva. Abhimanyu was a warrior in the Mahabharata who, while still in his mother's womb, heard Arjuna tell the secret of how to break into the powerful circular battle formation known as the Chakravyūha. His mother, and with her, Abhimanyu in her womb, fell asleep before hearing how to break out of the formation. Once an adult, Abhimanyu entered the Chakravyūha of his enemies, the Kauravas, and killed many of their soldiers. But, not knowing how to exit the formation, became trapped inside and was eventually weakened and killed by the combined might of his enemies' heroes. The Sañjīva-Jātaka is a story-within-a-story. The main story tells of King Ajātasattu who followed Devadatta, the enemy of the Buddhas and how he paid for it. The story-within, tells of a young brahmin, named Sañjīva, pupil of the Bodhisattva, who taught him a spell to raise the dead. Wishing to impress his peers, Sañjīva cast the spell on a dead tiger. But, not knowing the counter-spell, he could not control the tiger, who bit him in the neck and killed him, then fell dead by his side. The story-within is meant to teach how an evil person cannot be a true ally and will soon turn against you: Befriend a villain, aid him in his need, And, like that tiger which Sañjīva raised To life, he straight devours you for your pains. There are obvious parallels between the two stories and the Sorcerer's Apprentice tale (modern and ancient). However, Abhimanyu's story is also significantly different, in that the Chakravyūha is not his own creation that he lost control over. If we take Abhimanyu's story as similar to the Sorcerer's Apprentice story, and accept that the theme is one of knowing how to initiate a process, but not how to stop it, then we may also heed the story of Phaethon, the son of Helios, the sun god, who asked to drive his father's chariot (i.e. the sun) but couldn't control it and was killed by Zeus to stop him wreaking havok to the Earth. This is a story from Greek mythology and therefore much older than the story of Sañjīva and at least as old as the Mahabharata. Therefore, as a stereotypical Greek, I will claim the oldest telling of the story of The Boy Who Lost Control for the legend of Phaethon. __________ Refs: Abhimanyu's article on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhimanyu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhimanyu Chakravyūha article on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmavyuha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmavyuha The Sañjīva-Jātaka: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j1/j1153.htm http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j1/j1153.htm Phaethon's article on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaethon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaethon
- escherplex 8y ago
  Cute. This was worth researching. Given Wikipedia's description of the Vedic Abhimanyu the 'Sorcerer's Apprentice' analogy may be pushing it a bit, given his status as the reincarnation of the son of moon-god Chandra. But the Sanjiva-Jataka story ends with an interesting maxim: Befriend a villain, aid him in his need, And, like that tiger which Sañjīva raised To life, he straight devours you for your pains. Which reads like an early version of the line no good deed goes unpunished :)
  - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
    There's another Jātaka involving a brahmin and a tiger that teaches pretty much the same lesson: The Tiger, the Brahmin and the Jackal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tiger,_the_Brahmin_and_the_Jackal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tiger,_the_Brahmin_and_the... From the article: A brahmin passes a tiger in a trap. The tiger pleads for his release, promising not to eat the brahmin. The brahmin sets him free but no sooner is the tiger out of the cage then he says he is going to eat the brahmin. The brahmin is horrified and tells the tiger how unjust he is. They agree to ask the first three things they encounter to judge between them. The first thing they encounter is a tree, who, having suffered at the hands of humans, answers that the tiger should eat the brahmin. Next a buffalo, exploited and mistreated by humans, agrees it is only just that the brahmin should be eaten. Finally they meet a jackal, who at first feigns incomprehension of what has happened and asks to see the trap. Once there he claims he still doesn't understand. The tiger gets back in the trap to demonstrate and the jackal quickly shuts him in, suggesting to the brahmin that they leave matters thus. See, the Jackal is the Trickster, innit.
- aptwebapps 8y ago
  > This is bogus. That's somewhat harsh, isn't it? Perhaps the commenter was not familiar with the Indian stories? The word 'bogus' has a pejorative connotation - the implication is that the commenter is being deliberately misleading which would seem a fairly uncharitable reading. As for the Indian stories themselves, I may be forgetting some crucial details but I'm not able to see how they are Sorcerer's Apprentice type stories. Edit: I _was_ forgetting! I still don't quite get the parallel with Abhimanyu's story but the Jataka story is definitely similar.
  - ceautery 8y ago
    > The word 'bogus' has a pejorative connotation "Bogus" is one of those words that carries different emotional weights based on your background. The 1980s street-tough in me sees bogus in the Bill & Ted's sense, but the data scientist in me sees it in the "I didn't control all the variables in my experiment, and got bogus results" way. I think we can assume good faith in this case, that it wasn't meant as an insult.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
Given those two pieces of evidence, it's clear now: we've found our missing time traveler.
ragazzina 8y ago
> A programmer is harmed by their creation not because it goes against their orders but because it follows their orders to a much greater extent than they were anticipating. This is theme also explored by Isaac Asimov regarding the Three Laws of Robotics, in short stories such as "...That Thou Art Mindful of Him".
- swebs 8y ago
  It's also the basic idea explaining allergies.
  - normalfaults 8y ago
    Interesting. How do? Care to elaborate?
    - swebs 8y ago
      Cells in your immune system are programmed to follow a set of rules in order to attack foreign invaders. This is very effective in defeating bacteria and viruses. It is not so effective against allergens like pollen and dust. Cells will continuously produce antibodies and histamines to attack these particles to the point where it overwhelms the rest of the body and causes collateral damage. If you want to see a fictional representation of this, watch Cells at Work episode 5.
  - ohithereyou 8y ago
    A better example may be lupus or arthritis, both examples of the immune system being over-active and attacking the host.
- tzs 8y ago
  A couple more Asimov Three Law stories on this theme would be "Reason" and "The Evitable Conflict".
lossolo 8y ago
> A programmer is harmed by their creation not because it goes against their orders but because it follows their orders to a much greater extent than they were anticipating. Like Reapers in Mass Effect.
jimktrains2 8y ago
At least once a week: Me: I solved my problem at work today! Wife: Was the computer doing exactly what you told it to do and not what you actually wanted it to do again? Me: Yes ::sulks away::
MichaelMoser123 8y ago
in another unrelated story that happened some 60 years before Lucian of Samosata: ... emperor Vespasian (is said) to have purchased and destroyed the model of a mechanical device that would have made construction work more efficient, saying, “You must let me feed my poor commons (Sine me pascere plebeculam meam)” In these cases, preserving political stability motivated government to suppress technology ... http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/HeroAndLoon.html http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/HeroAndLo...

charmides 8y ago

This is fascinating. I never heard about this.

shas3 8y ago

This is bogus. Abhimanyu’s story in Mahabharatha and Sanjiva’s story from Buddhist Jataka tales both predate Lucian and are both Sorcerer’s Apprentice type tales.

Isamu 8y ago
Interesting, could you post one of them? The version from Lucian is as follows: “Whenever we came to an inn, he used to take up the bar of the door, or a broom, or perhaps a pestle, dress it up in clothes, and utter a certain incantation; whereupon the thing would begin to walk about, so that every one took it for a man. It would go off and draw water, buy and cook provisions, and make itself generally useful. When we had no further occasion for its services, there was another incantation, after which the broom was a broom once more, or the pestle a pestle. I could never get him to teach me this incantation, though it was not for want of trying; open as he was about everything else, he guarded this one secret jealously. At last one day I hid in a dark corner, and overheard the magic syllables; they were three in number. The Egyptian gave the pestle its instructions, and then went off to the market. Well, next day he was again busy in the market: so I took the pestle, dressed it, pronounced the three syllables exactly as he had done, and ordered it to become a water-carrier. It brought me the pitcher full; and then I said: Stop: be water-carrier no longer, but pestle as heretofore. But the thing would take no notice of me: it went on drawing water the whole time, until at last the house was full of it. This was awkward: if Pancrates came back, he would be angry, I thought (and so indeed it turned out). I took an axe, and cut the pestle in two. The result was that both halves took pitchers and fetched water; I had two water-carriers instead of one. This was still going on, when Pancrates appeared. He saw how things stood, and turned the water-carriers back into wood; and then he withdrew himself from me, and went away, whither I knew not.”
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  Not the OP, but I was curious so I read a bit about Abhimanyu and Sañjīva. Abhimanyu was a warrior in the Mahabharata who, while still in his mother's womb, heard Arjuna tell the secret of how to break into the powerful circular battle formation known as the Chakravyūha. His mother, and with her, Abhimanyu in her womb, fell asleep before hearing how to break out of the formation. Once an adult, Abhimanyu entered the Chakravyūha of his enemies, the Kauravas, and killed many of their soldiers. But, not knowing how to exit the formation, became trapped inside and was eventually weakened and killed by the combined might of his enemies' heroes. The Sañjīva-Jātaka is a story-within-a-story. The main story tells of King Ajātasattu who followed Devadatta, the enemy of the Buddhas and how he paid for it. The story-within, tells of a young brahmin, named Sañjīva, pupil of the Bodhisattva, who taught him a spell to raise the dead. Wishing to impress his peers, Sañjīva cast the spell on a dead tiger. But, not knowing the counter-spell, he could not control the tiger, who bit him in the neck and killed him, then fell dead by his side. The story-within is meant to teach how an evil person cannot be a true ally and will soon turn against you: Befriend a villain, aid him in his need, And, like that tiger which Sañjīva raised To life, he straight devours you for your pains. There are obvious parallels between the two stories and the Sorcerer's Apprentice tale (modern and ancient). However, Abhimanyu's story is also significantly different, in that the Chakravyūha is not his own creation that he lost control over. If we take Abhimanyu's story as similar to the Sorcerer's Apprentice story, and accept that the theme is one of knowing how to initiate a process, but not how to stop it, then we may also heed the story of Phaethon, the son of Helios, the sun god, who asked to drive his father's chariot (i.e. the sun) but couldn't control it and was killed by Zeus to stop him wreaking havok to the Earth. This is a story from Greek mythology and therefore much older than the story of Sañjīva and at least as old as the Mahabharata. Therefore, as a stereotypical Greek, I will claim the oldest telling of the story of The Boy Who Lost Control for the legend of Phaethon. __________ Refs: Abhimanyu's article on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhimanyu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhimanyu Chakravyūha article on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmavyuha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmavyuha The Sañjīva-Jātaka: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j1/j1153.htm http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j1/j1153.htm Phaethon's article on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaethon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaethon
escherplex 8y ago
Cute. This was worth researching. Given Wikipedia's description of the Vedic Abhimanyu the 'Sorcerer's Apprentice' analogy may be pushing it a bit, given his status as the reincarnation of the son of moon-god Chandra. But the Sanjiva-Jataka story ends with an interesting maxim: Befriend a villain, aid him in his need, And, like that tiger which Sañjīva raised To life, he straight devours you for your pains. Which reads like an early version of the line no good deed goes unpunished :)
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  There's another Jātaka involving a brahmin and a tiger that teaches pretty much the same lesson: The Tiger, the Brahmin and the Jackal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tiger,_the_Brahmin_and_the_Jackal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tiger,_the_Brahmin_and_the... From the article: A brahmin passes a tiger in a trap. The tiger pleads for his release, promising not to eat the brahmin. The brahmin sets him free but no sooner is the tiger out of the cage then he says he is going to eat the brahmin. The brahmin is horrified and tells the tiger how unjust he is. They agree to ask the first three things they encounter to judge between them. The first thing they encounter is a tree, who, having suffered at the hands of humans, answers that the tiger should eat the brahmin. Next a buffalo, exploited and mistreated by humans, agrees it is only just that the brahmin should be eaten. Finally they meet a jackal, who at first feigns incomprehension of what has happened and asks to see the trap. Once there he claims he still doesn't understand. The tiger gets back in the trap to demonstrate and the jackal quickly shuts him in, suggesting to the brahmin that they leave matters thus. See, the Jackal is the Trickster, innit.
aptwebapps 8y ago
> This is bogus. That's somewhat harsh, isn't it? Perhaps the commenter was not familiar with the Indian stories? The word 'bogus' has a pejorative connotation - the implication is that the commenter is being deliberately misleading which would seem a fairly uncharitable reading. As for the Indian stories themselves, I may be forgetting some crucial details but I'm not able to see how they are Sorcerer's Apprentice type stories. Edit: I _was_ forgetting! I still don't quite get the parallel with Abhimanyu's story but the Jataka story is definitely similar.
- ceautery 8y ago
  > The word 'bogus' has a pejorative connotation "Bogus" is one of those words that carries different emotional weights based on your background. The 1980s street-tough in me sees bogus in the Bill & Ted's sense, but the data scientist in me sees it in the "I didn't control all the variables in my experiment, and got bogus results" way. I think we can assume good faith in this case, that it wasn't meant as an insult.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

Given those two pieces of evidence, it's clear now: we've found our missing time traveler.

ragazzina 8y ago

> A programmer is harmed by their creation not because it goes against their orders but because it follows their orders to a much greater extent than they were anticipating. This is theme also explored by Isaac Asimov regarding the Three Laws of Robotics, in short stories such as "...That Thou Art Mindful of Him".

swebs 8y ago
It's also the basic idea explaining allergies.
- normalfaults 8y ago
  Interesting. How do? Care to elaborate?
  - swebs 8y ago
    Cells in your immune system are programmed to follow a set of rules in order to attack foreign invaders. This is very effective in defeating bacteria and viruses. It is not so effective against allergens like pollen and dust. Cells will continuously produce antibodies and histamines to attack these particles to the point where it overwhelms the rest of the body and causes collateral damage. If you want to see a fictional representation of this, watch Cells at Work episode 5.
- ohithereyou 8y ago
  A better example may be lupus or arthritis, both examples of the immune system being over-active and attacking the host.
tzs 8y ago
A couple more Asimov Three Law stories on this theme would be "Reason" and "The Evitable Conflict".

lossolo 8y ago

> A programmer is harmed by their creation not because it goes against their orders but because it follows their orders to a much greater extent than they were anticipating. Like Reapers in Mass Effect.

jimktrains2 8y ago

At least once a week: Me: I solved my problem at work today! Wife: Was the computer doing exactly what you told it to do and not what you actually wanted it to do again? Me: Yes ::sulks away::

MichaelMoser123 8y ago

in another unrelated story that happened some 60 years before Lucian of Samosata: ... emperor Vespasian (is said) to have purchased and destroyed the model of a mechanical device that would have made construction work more efficient, saying, “You must let me feed my poor commons (Sine me pascere plebeculam meam)” In these cases, preserving political stability motivated government to suppress technology ... http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/HeroAndLoon.html http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/HeroAndLo...