14 ms·

Americans Strongly Dislike PC Culture

77 points by johnny313 8y ago

charlesism 8y ago
The author is Yascha Mounk. I've listened to his podcast for a while: https://player.fm/series/the-good-fight-1528359 https://player.fm/series/the-good-fight-1528359 It's really good.
malvosenior 8y ago
> Compared with the rest of the (nationally representative) polling sample, progressive activists are much more likely to be rich, highly educated—and white. They are nearly twice as likely as the average to make more than $100,000 a year. They are nearly three times as likely to have a postgraduate degree. And while 12 percent of the overall sample in the study is African American, only 3 percent of progressive activists are. With the exception of the small tribe of devoted conservatives, progressive activists are the most racially homogeneous group in the country. This is one of the problems I have with the modern progressive movement. All of the most privileged people I know are also the only people I know who constantly complain about privilege. It definitely comes off as upper middle class in-group signaling and more than a little grating. Especially when the unrelenting target of said complaining are practitioners of STEM.
- growlist 8y ago
  Indeed. I'll start 'checking my privilege' once I see some evidence I've benefited from that, as opposed to risk taking and thousands of hours of hard work.
  - bfuller 8y ago
    >as opposed to risk taking and thousands of hours of hard work. one might say it is a privilege to get to do those things.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - romwell 8y ago
    Oh really? The whole point is that people who don't have your privileges can't afford to take as many risks, the same hard work has a smaller payoff, and the cost of a mistake is higher. Privilege doesn't mean getting where you got was easy. It means that for those that don't have it, it's way, way, way harder to get to the same place.
    - growlist 8y ago
      All I have is my own experience here, and at least in the UK I've almost never witnessed any kind of prejudice keeping people down - on the contrary, IT is crying out for women, ethnic minorities etc - with one major exception: the class system, which without question still matters when going for jobs in e.g. the City. However, not being a posh boy from grammar school, I don't benefit from that.
      - DanBC 8y ago
        > and at least in the UK I've almost never witnessed any kind of prejudice keeping people down You haven't been paying attention. Black people are more likely to be subject to stop and search than white people. In particular for drugs even though they use drugs at a lower rate than white people. Despite knowing about this injustice for years rates have got worse. https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/oct/13/racial-bias-police-stop-and-search-policy-black-people-report https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/oct/13/racial-bias-poli... Black people are more likely to be detained under the MH Act, more likely to be subjected to restraint and rapid tranquilisation, and more likely to be on a community treatment order. This is probably racism. https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/independent-review-of-the-mental-health-act https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/independent-review-of-t... https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mental-health-act-independent-review https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mental-health-act... Black carribean pupils are excluded at 3 times the rate of white pupils, and this is probably racism. https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/absence-and-exclusions/pupil-exclusions/latest https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education... Black doctors get paid less than white doctors; BAME health care professionals have complaints investigated more often than their white collagues and those complaints are more often upheld. THis is probably racism. https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2018/01/31/amitava-banerjee-institutional-racism-is-still-a-major-problem-in-the-nhs/ https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2018/01/31/amitava-banerjee-instit...
- AnarchoYeasty 8y ago
  Probably because we have seen how bullshit it is that we've "made it" while people who have worked a hell of a lot harder and deserve it so much more than us still stuggle to make it. Also, it's pretty hard to become an activist if you are struggling, so it absolutely makes sense that it would be the upper-middle class who take up the fight.
- rdtsc 8y ago
  > It definitely comes off as upper middle class in-group signaling and more than a little grating. I have noticed this as well at work, in the extended family, when I was at school and other places. At one level I think it is because the overt display of privilege, wealth and power like it was before is not sophisticated enough, so it moved to this inverted display of humility or some deep concern for some marginalized class. I'd like to believe it is real but I suspect quite often it is just to one-up someone else in the social status game. Anyone notice this? Someone at a gathering, or online, mentions they support some marginalized group. Right after someone else chimes in with "Oh but I support an even more persecuted group, my group is more worthy than yours because...<reasons follow>". After a few rounds a winner emerges.
erikpukinskis 8y ago
“Americans strongly dislike [term which is demonized constantly]” ... you don’t say. Ask them if they like people using words like fa---- and ni---- and b---- in the workplace. If the majority of people say they wish they could use those words then by all means write an article to tell us about it. All this “study” tells us is that people react as trained to a highly manipulated term. It’s like all the people who say they’re not a feminist but they think women should be paid the same for the same work and rapists should be prosecuted. “I’m for those things, but I’m against the banner under which they would be naturally advocated for, because I associate that banner with shitty people for some reason.” All you have to do to hobble a movement is associate its name with some garbage.
- aestetix 8y ago
  The question is not whether you use the word in the workplace. The question is whether, if you have used one of those words anywhere, ever, should your life be destroyed?
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    Do you have an example of someone who used words like that outside the workplace and had their life destroyed?
    - paulddraper 8y ago
      Paula Deen
      - erikpukinskis 8y ago
        Seems a little dramatic to say Paula Deen’s life is “destroyed”.
        paulddraper 8y ago
        No, she was not literally murdered. She was blackballed. Someone had accused Dean of saying the N word, which she denied but then admitted to using it years ago. In a matter of weeks, Food Network, J.C. Penney, Kmart, Sears, Target, Walmart and her book publisher all dropped her, despite her apologies for her confession. Jimmy Carter said, "I think she has been punished, perhaps overly severely, for her honesty in admitting it and for the use of the word in the distant past."
scoom 8y ago
That's because Americans are a massive bunch of snowflakes offended at the mere thought of people having different views from them.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  My understanding is that the PC culture backlash is the intolerance of “snowflakes”, which I’d define as individuals who place the value of opinions over fact, are unable to entertain both sides of an argument at the same time, believe safe spaces and trigger words are more important than freedom of speech, or are unable to tolerate criticism or the expression of ideas drastically different than their own. This is just scratching the surface without talking about the possible use of diversity and inclusion efforts as sanctioned discrimination.
  - happytoexplain 8y ago
    Your definition consists of one description that distinguishes "snowflakes" (safe spaces, etc), and three general, similar flaws that apply equally well to their counterparts within the "anti-PC" crowd. I think that's probably the (sarcastic) point the parent comment was making.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- masterphilo 8y ago
  Excellent!
maxscam 8y ago
Less educated people haven't learned enough to communicate in a respectful way. It's not all about degree or income either, if someone has a CS degree they can still be uneducated in some sense if they've never taken humanities classes. If it sounds elitist its because it is. However there's a big difference between finding south Park funny and in saying or doing targeted offensive things. I see a lot of this discussion about PC fascism to be a straw man. You have to wonder what all these do or die "free speech" activists would have sounded like in the 50s. Woman! Make me some toast. Where exactly is all the PC fascism nowadays? I don't see it. Mostly what I see are people unable to adapt To changing standards. Bunch of snowflakes
Chazprime 8y ago
I suspect the reason that most Americans don’t like political correctness is because even someone who isn’t highly educated or is politically disengaged knows a bad faith argument when they hear one. And If the people making these arguments don’t learn that using scorched-earth tactics in every situation isn’t the right way to engage with issues of injustice or inequality, I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
randyrand 8y ago
...and the main reason why Trump won. Too bad it doesn’t seem like we’ve made much progress on PC culture ridiculousness since then.
- happytoexplain 8y ago
  I'd argue (with no malice) that there's just as big a problem, if not a bigger problem, on the opposite end of the spectrum, where having any reaction at all to one's self or others being insulted, attacked, or mocked will draw hateful calls of "snowflake", "safe space", etc. Even the president mocks and insults individuals who haven't done anything to deserve it, which is a pretty dramatic problem. People might disagree on which side has the "bigger" problem, but they both do have big problems, and communication will always be absolutely impossible as long as those problem attitudes remain so common.
Latteland 8y ago
I don't understand pc the way this article kinds of defines it, but what I experience is people making clear racist comments and then defending it by claiming I'm worried about being politically correct. My (family member that I want to avoid exposing) is an Archie Bunker cliched conservative. When he gets mad he might throw out the N word. He tries to defend it some times by saying rappers use it in songs. I told him it's always offensive (we are white for what it matters). He might claim that this is just being politically correct. When he was a kid this person must have heard their parents use it. Maybe I'm on the other side of the pc maginot line, but I think using that word is pretty much always wrong, I don't like it when it's music. I don't like similar words for Jewish people, or immigrants from certain countries or words to denigrate muslims. This feels very different than the "new word to judiciously refer to a group of people that I don't know about" that feels like a different kind of thing that is also attacked as PC (e.g., Latinx).
- paulddraper 8y ago
  > When he gets mad he might throw out the N word. > I told him it's always offensive It is always offensive. Just like f--ker, s--thead, a--hole, etc. are always offensive. Yet somehow, you rarely see a ruckus made over those.
  - Latteland 8y ago
    Okay, it's always been obvious to me that those words are unacceptable, but I am trying to be open minded for other people's ideas in the discussion of pc culture. Maybe there's another view?
    - Chazprime 8y ago
      This American Life did a great podcast entitled “Words You Can’t Say” earlier this year; might be good primer for you (it’s also available on iTunes): https://www.thisamericanlife.org/637/words-you-cant-say https://www.thisamericanlife.org/637/words-you-cant-say
      - 8y ago
anon4738383 8y ago
Maybe that's why Real Time with Bill Maher is so popular.

77 points by johnny313 8y ago

The author is Yascha Mounk. I've listened to his podcast for a while: https://player.fm/series/the-good-fight-1528359 https://player.fm/series/the-good-fight-1528359 It's really good.

malvosenior 8y ago

> Compared with the rest of the (nationally representative) polling sample, progressive activists are much more likely to be rich, highly educated—and white. They are nearly twice as likely as the average to make more than $100,000 a year. They are nearly three times as likely to have a postgraduate degree. And while 12 percent of the overall sample in the study is African American, only 3 percent of progressive activists are. With the exception of the small tribe of devoted conservatives, progressive activists are the most racially homogeneous group in the country. This is one of the problems I have with the modern progressive movement. All of the most privileged people I know are also the only people I know who constantly complain about privilege. It definitely comes off as upper middle class in-group signaling and more than a little grating. Especially when the unrelenting target of said complaining are practitioners of STEM.

growlist 8y ago
Indeed. I'll start 'checking my privilege' once I see some evidence I've benefited from that, as opposed to risk taking and thousands of hours of hard work.
- bfuller 8y ago
  >as opposed to risk taking and thousands of hours of hard work. one might say it is a privilege to get to do those things.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- romwell 8y ago
  Oh really? The whole point is that people who don't have your privileges can't afford to take as many risks, the same hard work has a smaller payoff, and the cost of a mistake is higher. Privilege doesn't mean getting where you got was easy. It means that for those that don't have it, it's way, way, way harder to get to the same place.
  - growlist 8y ago
    All I have is my own experience here, and at least in the UK I've almost never witnessed any kind of prejudice keeping people down - on the contrary, IT is crying out for women, ethnic minorities etc - with one major exception: the class system, which without question still matters when going for jobs in e.g. the City. However, not being a posh boy from grammar school, I don't benefit from that.
    - DanBC 8y ago
      > and at least in the UK I've almost never witnessed any kind of prejudice keeping people down You haven't been paying attention. Black people are more likely to be subject to stop and search than white people. In particular for drugs even though they use drugs at a lower rate than white people. Despite knowing about this injustice for years rates have got worse. https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/oct/13/racial-bias-police-stop-and-search-policy-black-people-report https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/oct/13/racial-bias-poli... Black people are more likely to be detained under the MH Act, more likely to be subjected to restraint and rapid tranquilisation, and more likely to be on a community treatment order. This is probably racism. https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/independent-review-of-the-mental-health-act https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/independent-review-of-t... https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mental-health-act-independent-review https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mental-health-act... Black carribean pupils are excluded at 3 times the rate of white pupils, and this is probably racism. https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/absence-and-exclusions/pupil-exclusions/latest https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education... Black doctors get paid less than white doctors; BAME health care professionals have complaints investigated more often than their white collagues and those complaints are more often upheld. THis is probably racism. https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2018/01/31/amitava-banerjee-institutional-racism-is-still-a-major-problem-in-the-nhs/ https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2018/01/31/amitava-banerjee-instit...
AnarchoYeasty 8y ago
Probably because we have seen how bullshit it is that we've "made it" while people who have worked a hell of a lot harder and deserve it so much more than us still stuggle to make it. Also, it's pretty hard to become an activist if you are struggling, so it absolutely makes sense that it would be the upper-middle class who take up the fight.
rdtsc 8y ago
> It definitely comes off as upper middle class in-group signaling and more than a little grating. I have noticed this as well at work, in the extended family, when I was at school and other places. At one level I think it is because the overt display of privilege, wealth and power like it was before is not sophisticated enough, so it moved to this inverted display of humility or some deep concern for some marginalized class. I'd like to believe it is real but I suspect quite often it is just to one-up someone else in the social status game. Anyone notice this? Someone at a gathering, or online, mentions they support some marginalized group. Right after someone else chimes in with "Oh but I support an even more persecuted group, my group is more worthy than yours because...<reasons follow>". After a few rounds a winner emerges.

erikpukinskis 8y ago

“Americans strongly dislike [term which is demonized constantly]” ... you don’t say. Ask them if they like people using words like fa---- and ni---- and b---- in the workplace. If the majority of people say they wish they could use those words then by all means write an article to tell us about it. All this “study” tells us is that people react as trained to a highly manipulated term. It’s like all the people who say they’re not a feminist but they think women should be paid the same for the same work and rapists should be prosecuted. “I’m for those things, but I’m against the banner under which they would be naturally advocated for, because I associate that banner with shitty people for some reason.” All you have to do to hobble a movement is associate its name with some garbage.

aestetix 8y ago
The question is not whether you use the word in the workplace. The question is whether, if you have used one of those words anywhere, ever, should your life be destroyed?
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  Do you have an example of someone who used words like that outside the workplace and had their life destroyed?
  - paulddraper 8y ago
    Paula Deen
    - erikpukinskis 8y ago
      Seems a little dramatic to say Paula Deen’s life is “destroyed”.
      - paulddraper 8y ago
        No, she was not literally murdered. She was blackballed. Someone had accused Dean of saying the N word, which she denied but then admitted to using it years ago. In a matter of weeks, Food Network, J.C. Penney, Kmart, Sears, Target, Walmart and her book publisher all dropped her, despite her apologies for her confession. Jimmy Carter said, "I think she has been punished, perhaps overly severely, for her honesty in admitting it and for the use of the word in the distant past."

scoom 8y ago

That's because Americans are a massive bunch of snowflakes offended at the mere thought of people having different views from them.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
My understanding is that the PC culture backlash is the intolerance of “snowflakes”, which I’d define as individuals who place the value of opinions over fact, are unable to entertain both sides of an argument at the same time, believe safe spaces and trigger words are more important than freedom of speech, or are unable to tolerate criticism or the expression of ideas drastically different than their own. This is just scratching the surface without talking about the possible use of diversity and inclusion efforts as sanctioned discrimination.
- happytoexplain 8y ago
  Your definition consists of one description that distinguishes "snowflakes" (safe spaces, etc), and three general, similar flaws that apply equally well to their counterparts within the "anti-PC" crowd. I think that's probably the (sarcastic) point the parent comment was making.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
masterphilo 8y ago
Excellent!

maxscam 8y ago

Less educated people haven't learned enough to communicate in a respectful way. It's not all about degree or income either, if someone has a CS degree they can still be uneducated in some sense if they've never taken humanities classes. If it sounds elitist its because it is. However there's a big difference between finding south Park funny and in saying or doing targeted offensive things. I see a lot of this discussion about PC fascism to be a straw man. You have to wonder what all these do or die "free speech" activists would have sounded like in the 50s. Woman! Make me some toast. Where exactly is all the PC fascism nowadays? I don't see it. Mostly what I see are people unable to adapt To changing standards. Bunch of snowflakes

Chazprime 8y ago

I suspect the reason that most Americans don’t like political correctness is because even someone who isn’t highly educated or is politically disengaged knows a bad faith argument when they hear one. And If the people making these arguments don’t learn that using scorched-earth tactics in every situation isn’t the right way to engage with issues of injustice or inequality, I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

randyrand 8y ago

...and the main reason why Trump won. Too bad it doesn’t seem like we’ve made much progress on PC culture ridiculousness since then.

happytoexplain 8y ago
I'd argue (with no malice) that there's just as big a problem, if not a bigger problem, on the opposite end of the spectrum, where having any reaction at all to one's self or others being insulted, attacked, or mocked will draw hateful calls of "snowflake", "safe space", etc. Even the president mocks and insults individuals who haven't done anything to deserve it, which is a pretty dramatic problem. People might disagree on which side has the "bigger" problem, but they both do have big problems, and communication will always be absolutely impossible as long as those problem attitudes remain so common.

Latteland 8y ago

I don't understand pc the way this article kinds of defines it, but what I experience is people making clear racist comments and then defending it by claiming I'm worried about being politically correct. My (family member that I want to avoid exposing) is an Archie Bunker cliched conservative. When he gets mad he might throw out the N word. He tries to defend it some times by saying rappers use it in songs. I told him it's always offensive (we are white for what it matters). He might claim that this is just being politically correct. When he was a kid this person must have heard their parents use it. Maybe I'm on the other side of the pc maginot line, but I think using that word is pretty much always wrong, I don't like it when it's music. I don't like similar words for Jewish people, or immigrants from certain countries or words to denigrate muslims. This feels very different than the "new word to judiciously refer to a group of people that I don't know about" that feels like a different kind of thing that is also attacked as PC (e.g., Latinx).

paulddraper 8y ago
> When he gets mad he might throw out the N word. > I told him it's always offensive It is always offensive. Just like f--ker, s--thead, a--hole, etc. are always offensive. Yet somehow, you rarely see a ruckus made over those.
- Latteland 8y ago
  Okay, it's always been obvious to me that those words are unacceptable, but I am trying to be open minded for other people's ideas in the discussion of pc culture. Maybe there's another view?
  - Chazprime 8y ago
    This American Life did a great podcast entitled “Words You Can’t Say” earlier this year; might be good primer for you (it’s also available on iTunes): https://www.thisamericanlife.org/637/words-you-cant-say https://www.thisamericanlife.org/637/words-you-cant-say
    - 8y ago

anon4738383 8y ago

Maybe that's why Real Time with Bill Maher is so popular.