3 ms·

We could easily solve the small buisiness problem by making the audit process happen at the government’s expense and probably still make money. We don’t have th

We could easily solve the small buisiness problem by making the audit process happen at the government’s expense and probably still make money. We don’t have the government just tell you what you owe (like many other nations) because of the tax prep industry lobbyist and people vested on existing loopholes. I don’t believe the driving force is protecting small buisinesses from Audits- anecdotal, but small businesses in my family are still audited frequently. I believe it has to do with how unpopular the IRS is with the conservatives for ideological reasons, and they currently control the government. Our president bragged about how dodging taxes was an admirable quality- that kind of attitude is the driving force in american rhetoric, not protecting small buisiness owners.

AnthonyMouse 8y ago
I completely support the idea of the IRS sending individuals a default tax return which you can just use as-is if you don't have anything to dispute or amend and be done. But that doesn't work for small businesses. If you sell hamburgers, the majority of your customers won't have informed the IRS of the transaction. If any part of your supply chain includes normal retail outlets, same thing. Small business tax returns are pretty horrific. (They're at least as complicated for large businesses too, but they actually like it that way for all the usual reasons.) > I don’t believe the driving force is protecting small buisinesses from Audits- anecdotal, but small businesses in my family are still audited frequently. And they typically don't uncover major tax fraud, right? Evidence that the existing level of enforcement is, if anything, too high. > I believe it has to do with how unpopular the IRS is with the conservatives for ideological reasons That doesn't make any sense. Both of the major parties are ideologically bankrupt and ruthlessly pragmatic. Some part of their constituency wants it this way -- and it's probably the small business owners who keep getting audited even though they're not evading taxes. > Our president bragged about how dodging taxes was an admirable quality- that kind of attitude is the driving force in american rhetoric, not protecting small buisiness owners. Not paying taxes you don't actually owe is textbook capitalism. The idea that we should be outraged at companies for not paying what the law we passed says they don't owe instead of replacing the tax laws with ones that cause them to actually owe taxes is some kind of nonsense populist rhetoric.
- mattnewton 8y ago
  > But that doesn't work for small businesses. If you sell hamburgers, the majority of your customers won't have informed the IRS of the transaction. Hamburger joints getting extra scrutiny at the government’s expense doesn’t seem like a problem to me, especially since they often already do. The people who aren’t getting audited often enough are not Mom&Pop hamburger joints, no one is arguing that. The premise of the parent poster is that the IRS is underfunded to deal with real large scale white collar crime, and as I understand you argue that’s not possible without splash damage to small buisinesses. But they're unrelated: you can specifically target large buisinesses, and you can make the government pay for audit services for small buisinesses. > Some part of their constituency wants it this way -- and it's probably the small business owners who keep getting audited even though they're not evading taxes. That’s utter nonsense. The large Republican doners not only have large tax bills at stake but believe they should not. http://time.com/5075076/koch-brothers-tax-bill-campaign/ http://time.com/5075076/koch-brothers-tax-bill-campaign/ https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article147454324.html https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article... https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/05/sheldon-adelson-cuts-30-million-check-to-house-rep.html https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/05/sheldon-adels... Each one of these doners individually spends hundreds of times more than the national small buisiness association on lobbying https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000054337&year=2017 https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D00005433... And it’s harder to tell the exact numbers, but probably thousands of times more more than all small buisinesses in donations. How ideologically bankrupt democrats are is irrelevant and doesn’t change what is happening here. > The idea that we should be outraged at companies for not paying what the law we passed says they don't owe instead of replacing the tax laws with ones that cause them to actually owe taxes is some kind of nonsense populist rhetoric. The idea is we should be outraged at the tax law and fix it, instead of celebrating the loopholes for billionaires.
  - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
    > Hamburger joints getting extra scrutiny at the government’s expense doesn’t seem like a problem to me, especially since they often already do. The problem with "at government expense" is that it annihilates the premise that this is going to increase government income. If you audit someone, they not only have to hire a tax professional, they have to spend their own time on it because they're the only one who knows their own business. But because they're the only one who knows their own business, they also need to spend their time running the business. So the amount you would have to properly compensate them would be at something like the overtime rate, but worse because it's involuntary, and for someone whose time may already be valued at six or seven figures. The government would never actually pay that full cost, so the idea that everything's fine because the government is paying for it is silly, and if they did it would immediately put the program deep underwater. > The premise of the parent poster is that the IRS is underfunded to deal with real large scale white collar crime, and as I understand you argue that’s not possible without splash damage to small buisinesses. But they're unrelated: you can specifically target large buisinesses, and you can make the government pay for audit services for small buisinesses. The problem is large businesses largely aren't the ones committing tax fraud -- hardly anybody is. Large businesses pay very low taxes because they hire very good accountants, not because they have fraudulent returns. The problem isn't that we need more audits, it's that we need better tax laws. > The large Republican doners not only have large tax bills at stake but believe they should not. Is it surprising that the people with the most money are the largest donors? It's basically a prerequisite. > Each one of these doners individually spends hundreds of times more than the national small buisiness association on lobbying Because small businesses don't have huge margins to be spending on lobbying. They're not a constituency because they donate, they're a constituency because they vote. > The idea is we should be outraged at the tax law and fix it, instead of celebrating the loopholes for billionaires. But that isn't where the outrage is directed. Nobody is actually fixing the laws -- either party. Even the Republican proposals (tax simplification, flat tax etc.) would fix it, but they never get enough votes to pass it because it's impossible to pass anything like that with the current level of polarization. If you can't get a single vote from the other party then it only takes a small handful in your own party to be corrupted by special interests and it's impossible to fix the problem.

AnthonyMouse 8y ago

I completely support the idea of the IRS sending individuals a default tax return which you can just use as-is if you don't have anything to dispute or amend and be done. But that doesn't work for small businesses. If you sell hamburgers, the majority of your customers won't have informed the IRS of the transaction. If any part of your supply chain includes normal retail outlets, same thing. Small business tax returns are pretty horrific. (They're at least as complicated for large businesses too, but they actually like it that way for all the usual reasons.) > I don’t believe the driving force is protecting small buisinesses from Audits- anecdotal, but small businesses in my family are still audited frequently. And they typically don't uncover major tax fraud, right? Evidence that the existing level of enforcement is, if anything, too high. > I believe it has to do with how unpopular the IRS is with the conservatives for ideological reasons That doesn't make any sense. Both of the major parties are ideologically bankrupt and ruthlessly pragmatic. Some part of their constituency wants it this way -- and it's probably the small business owners who keep getting audited even though they're not evading taxes. > Our president bragged about how dodging taxes was an admirable quality- that kind of attitude is the driving force in american rhetoric, not protecting small buisiness owners. Not paying taxes you don't actually owe is textbook capitalism. The idea that we should be outraged at companies for not paying what the law we passed says they don't owe instead of replacing the tax laws with ones that cause them to actually owe taxes is some kind of nonsense populist rhetoric.

mattnewton 8y ago
> But that doesn't work for small businesses. If you sell hamburgers, the majority of your customers won't have informed the IRS of the transaction. Hamburger joints getting extra scrutiny at the government’s expense doesn’t seem like a problem to me, especially since they often already do. The people who aren’t getting audited often enough are not Mom&Pop hamburger joints, no one is arguing that. The premise of the parent poster is that the IRS is underfunded to deal with real large scale white collar crime, and as I understand you argue that’s not possible without splash damage to small buisinesses. But they're unrelated: you can specifically target large buisinesses, and you can make the government pay for audit services for small buisinesses. > Some part of their constituency wants it this way -- and it's probably the small business owners who keep getting audited even though they're not evading taxes. That’s utter nonsense. The large Republican doners not only have large tax bills at stake but believe they should not. http://time.com/5075076/koch-brothers-tax-bill-campaign/ http://time.com/5075076/koch-brothers-tax-bill-campaign/ https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article147454324.html https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article... https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/05/sheldon-adelson-cuts-30-million-check-to-house-rep.html https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/05/sheldon-adels... Each one of these doners individually spends hundreds of times more than the national small buisiness association on lobbying https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000054337&year=2017 https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D00005433... And it’s harder to tell the exact numbers, but probably thousands of times more more than all small buisinesses in donations. How ideologically bankrupt democrats are is irrelevant and doesn’t change what is happening here. > The idea that we should be outraged at companies for not paying what the law we passed says they don't owe instead of replacing the tax laws with ones that cause them to actually owe taxes is some kind of nonsense populist rhetoric. The idea is we should be outraged at the tax law and fix it, instead of celebrating the loopholes for billionaires.
- AnthonyMouse 8y ago
  > Hamburger joints getting extra scrutiny at the government’s expense doesn’t seem like a problem to me, especially since they often already do. The problem with "at government expense" is that it annihilates the premise that this is going to increase government income. If you audit someone, they not only have to hire a tax professional, they have to spend their own time on it because they're the only one who knows their own business. But because they're the only one who knows their own business, they also need to spend their time running the business. So the amount you would have to properly compensate them would be at something like the overtime rate, but worse because it's involuntary, and for someone whose time may already be valued at six or seven figures. The government would never actually pay that full cost, so the idea that everything's fine because the government is paying for it is silly, and if they did it would immediately put the program deep underwater. > The premise of the parent poster is that the IRS is underfunded to deal with real large scale white collar crime, and as I understand you argue that’s not possible without splash damage to small buisinesses. But they're unrelated: you can specifically target large buisinesses, and you can make the government pay for audit services for small buisinesses. The problem is large businesses largely aren't the ones committing tax fraud -- hardly anybody is. Large businesses pay very low taxes because they hire very good accountants, not because they have fraudulent returns. The problem isn't that we need more audits, it's that we need better tax laws. > The large Republican doners not only have large tax bills at stake but believe they should not. Is it surprising that the people with the most money are the largest donors? It's basically a prerequisite. > Each one of these doners individually spends hundreds of times more than the national small buisiness association on lobbying Because small businesses don't have huge margins to be spending on lobbying. They're not a constituency because they donate, they're a constituency because they vote. > The idea is we should be outraged at the tax law and fix it, instead of celebrating the loopholes for billionaires. But that isn't where the outrage is directed. Nobody is actually fixing the laws -- either party. Even the Republican proposals (tax simplification, flat tax etc.) would fix it, but they never get enough votes to pass it because it's impossible to pass anything like that with the current level of polarization. If you can't get a single vote from the other party then it only takes a small handful in your own party to be corrupted by special interests and it's impossible to fix the problem.