8 ms·

It's a name which is associated with a certain level of contempt when applied by a man to a woman. It really depends on the jurisdiction's employment rights an

by dpwm 8y ago

It's a name which is associated with a certain level of contempt when applied by a man to a woman. It really depends on the jurisdiction's employment rights and very much on the context as to whether it could be grounds for dismissal, but I can certainly see situations where you could be summarily dismissed even in a jurisdiction with relatively strong employment protections, such as the UK. It's also worth noting that in some cases the employer is placed in a difficult position where they face a difficult choice: do nothing and they run the risk of an employee leaving citing constructive dismissal as management did nothing to handle the bullying; do something and risk retribution from the alleged. In some jurisdictions, sex discrimination in the workplace can lead to a substantial claim, so if you use aggressive language towards a female colleague in a 90% male workplace, HR is going to get twitchy. Allegations in the form of statements are substantive evidence when it comes to employment disputes and if gross misconduct is defined by your workplace as bullying or harassing co-workers, you can expect to be summarily dismissed. Also, employers can and frequently are wrong in their interpretation of what they can and cannot lawfully do. Again, this depends on jurisdiction but some jurisdictions have tribunals where you can take your case without the risk of costs being awarded against you.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Does the same apply if I call a female coworker a name that signifies contempt without being so inflammatory? More to the point: what is wrong with me expressing my contempt for a coworker that should deserve termination, regardless of gender? Or am I expected to be a robot that exudes nothing but faux kindness? If so, save the cult for those with more tolerance for that sort of corporate nonsense.
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  The issue is that you’re letting your issues turn in to personal attacks instead of taking your legitimate complaints to a manager. A workplace where workers take their problems out on each other sounds toxic and unprofessional to me.
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  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    The meritocracy you describe is rare to find. Politics is everywhere, where output is less important than tribalism.
    - mcphage 8y ago
      > The meritocracy you describe is rare to find. Politics is everywhere "Taking complaints to your manager instead of verbally attacking them" has nothing to do with a meritocracy, it's a political action for a political environment. It just happens to be one that will accomplish what you're trying to do much more successfully.
- dpwm 8y ago
  I can't think of a situation where you'd need to show contempt for a colleague. > a coworker that should deserve termination Isn't that for their employer to decide?
- komali2 8y ago
  Why did your emotions evolve all the way through from annoyance, to frustration, to contempt, with nothing being said, to the point where you are cussing someone out? I'm genuinely curious if anybody that reads this thinks it's acceptable or normal behavior to levy a genuine swear-insult at a coworker. That sounds like a fucking awful work environment. Actually contempt for each other? What kind of awful office culture is that? I've had co-workers piss me off, I'm not pretending to be a saint, but there is always at a bare minimum mutual respect, or even below that an understanding that we have to share the same office at the end of the day, so insulting each other is pissing in the well.
Aloha 8y ago
So wait, if a man calls her an asshole or dick instead, its perfectly fine? there is conceptually no logic in that. Similarly, if a woman calls a fellow co-worker a bitch, would that also apply? also very little logic in play here.
- AlexandrB 8y ago
  I love how these conversations inevitably lead to a desire for some kind of context-free rule about what words are and and are not acceptable. That just doesn't exist. Context is important. In the identity of the caller and the callee, in the nature of their working relationship, and in the nature of the interaction. For example a manager calling a direct report a bitch in anger should be completely unacceptable IMHO, while one colleague calling another a bitch in jest may be just fine.
  - Aloha 8y ago
    I'd agree with you, that context is important - just that the gender of the user of the word ought to be unimportant.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      In a world where everything else was equal, it would be.
    - dpwm 8y ago
      The gender of the user of the word ought to be unimportant, but it adds to a context that determines how it's being used. If we generalize what you've said to race, it shouldn't matter whether a white person is using the n-word. Except some number of white people did use that word for a long time with utmost contempt. If you used that word as a white person in an inclusive workplace today with the full contempt of the word, I doubt you'd still be in post 24 hours later unless you had something like tourettes. [0] I doubt we'd be having such a discussion about that. In many cultures, women have been treated as second-class citizens and, in many cultures, they are still treated as second-class citizens. Consider that in one canton in Switzerland, women didn't get to vote on local matters until 1990. [1] In nearly all countries, the distribution of power is still very much skewed towards men. The difference between a woman calling another woman a bitch and a man is the potential for confusion with contempt based purely on gender alone. A woman is perceived as unlikely to hold contemptuous views towards women based on their gender alone. This doesn't mean there are not women who despise women for being women, it's just that it is not perceived as such. It even depends on where it is and how the word is used. As such it's probably one of those words to avoid. This isn't political-correctness-gone-mad or because of some liberal cultural-marxist conspiracy to turn men into second-class citizens; it's because in a fraction of a second, even though that word may have no connotations of contempt to you, you have potentially reduced that person to an object of that contempt. Some people may not be affected by this, but some people will and be rather hurt. It's simply bad for business, no matter how useless you may perceive that person to be. If men had been treated as second-class citizens for centuries by women and dick was a pejorative term used against men, it would be a problem if a woman used that word against a man. Consider the following: - You'll never guess what that bitch has done now. - You bitch! - She's a bit of a bitch - Hey, bitches! Where I'm from (UK) each has a different level of contempt. I can't see that much in the last one. The first one is almost certainly contemptuous. The second one is very context dependent: if said scornfully it's contemptuous; if said jokingly it's probably not, although it could be confused as such. [0] Although, if you did have Tourette syndrome or similar, it is unlikely that you would say it with the full contempt unless you actually felt that contempt. Sadly, some people with tourettes do find it hard to keep a job because it is rather poorly understood. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerl...
Udik 8y ago
> It's a name which is associated with a certain level of contempt when applied by a man to a woman. I am not a native speaker, so I might be wrong on this. But I believed that "bitch" is the female version of "dick", isn't it? For example in Italian both are rendered with the same word, only flexed by gender.
- Aloha 8y ago
  Yeah, more or less. I'd agree.
- eric_h 8y ago
  In essence those words are used pejoratively in comparable situations. The word “bitch” however literally means “female dog” and is, in fact, used in a non-derogatory way in dog breeding circles. Context is everything, but calling a female coworker a “bitch” is not acceptable in a professional environment.
  - Udik 8y ago
    And what about calling a male colleague a "dick"? And of course I agree that it's unprofessional and generally not acceptable; however I disagree that it should be in itself enough to fire somebody. Of course a repeated behaviour of this kind is not acceptable and can be grounds for dismissal.
- berberous 8y ago
  While it depends on context, "bitch" (and the c-word) can be much more taboo words to use than dick/asshole. Like with the n-word, they have historically been used far more frequently in very hateful contexts -- i.e. men saying truly fucked up and mysoginistic things to women, in the same way that racist or homophobic epithets get used. Dick/asshole are much more neutral words from that perspective, rarely used in such hateful contexts -- for example, while I'd recommend you never do either as an employee, if you want to blow up at your female coworker for her bad behavior I think you'd be much better off just calling her a dick or asshole.
  - 8y ago

by dpwm 8y ago

toomuchtodo 8y ago

Does the same apply if I call a female coworker a name that signifies contempt without being so inflammatory? More to the point: what is wrong with me expressing my contempt for a coworker that should deserve termination, regardless of gender? Or am I expected to be a robot that exudes nothing but faux kindness? If so, save the cult for those with more tolerance for that sort of corporate nonsense.

TaylorAlexander 8y ago
The issue is that you’re letting your issues turn in to personal attacks instead of taking your legitimate complaints to a manager. A workplace where workers take their problems out on each other sounds toxic and unprofessional to me.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  The meritocracy you describe is rare to find. Politics is everywhere, where output is less important than tribalism.
  - mcphage 8y ago
    > The meritocracy you describe is rare to find. Politics is everywhere "Taking complaints to your manager instead of verbally attacking them" has nothing to do with a meritocracy, it's a political action for a political environment. It just happens to be one that will accomplish what you're trying to do much more successfully.
dpwm 8y ago
I can't think of a situation where you'd need to show contempt for a colleague. > a coworker that should deserve termination Isn't that for their employer to decide?
komali2 8y ago
Why did your emotions evolve all the way through from annoyance, to frustration, to contempt, with nothing being said, to the point where you are cussing someone out? I'm genuinely curious if anybody that reads this thinks it's acceptable or normal behavior to levy a genuine swear-insult at a coworker. That sounds like a fucking awful work environment. Actually contempt for each other? What kind of awful office culture is that? I've had co-workers piss me off, I'm not pretending to be a saint, but there is always at a bare minimum mutual respect, or even below that an understanding that we have to share the same office at the end of the day, so insulting each other is pissing in the well.

Aloha 8y ago

So wait, if a man calls her an asshole or dick instead, its perfectly fine? there is conceptually no logic in that. Similarly, if a woman calls a fellow co-worker a bitch, would that also apply? also very little logic in play here.

AlexandrB 8y ago
I love how these conversations inevitably lead to a desire for some kind of context-free rule about what words are and and are not acceptable. That just doesn't exist. Context is important. In the identity of the caller and the callee, in the nature of their working relationship, and in the nature of the interaction. For example a manager calling a direct report a bitch in anger should be completely unacceptable IMHO, while one colleague calling another a bitch in jest may be just fine.
- Aloha 8y ago
  I'd agree with you, that context is important - just that the gender of the user of the word ought to be unimportant.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    In a world where everything else was equal, it would be.
  - dpwm 8y ago
    The gender of the user of the word ought to be unimportant, but it adds to a context that determines how it's being used. If we generalize what you've said to race, it shouldn't matter whether a white person is using the n-word. Except some number of white people did use that word for a long time with utmost contempt. If you used that word as a white person in an inclusive workplace today with the full contempt of the word, I doubt you'd still be in post 24 hours later unless you had something like tourettes. [0] I doubt we'd be having such a discussion about that. In many cultures, women have been treated as second-class citizens and, in many cultures, they are still treated as second-class citizens. Consider that in one canton in Switzerland, women didn't get to vote on local matters until 1990. [1] In nearly all countries, the distribution of power is still very much skewed towards men. The difference between a woman calling another woman a bitch and a man is the potential for confusion with contempt based purely on gender alone. A woman is perceived as unlikely to hold contemptuous views towards women based on their gender alone. This doesn't mean there are not women who despise women for being women, it's just that it is not perceived as such. It even depends on where it is and how the word is used. As such it's probably one of those words to avoid. This isn't political-correctness-gone-mad or because of some liberal cultural-marxist conspiracy to turn men into second-class citizens; it's because in a fraction of a second, even though that word may have no connotations of contempt to you, you have potentially reduced that person to an object of that contempt. Some people may not be affected by this, but some people will and be rather hurt. It's simply bad for business, no matter how useless you may perceive that person to be. If men had been treated as second-class citizens for centuries by women and dick was a pejorative term used against men, it would be a problem if a woman used that word against a man. Consider the following: - You'll never guess what that bitch has done now. - You bitch! - She's a bit of a bitch - Hey, bitches! Where I'm from (UK) each has a different level of contempt. I can't see that much in the last one. The first one is almost certainly contemptuous. The second one is very context dependent: if said scornfully it's contemptuous; if said jokingly it's probably not, although it could be confused as such. [0] Although, if you did have Tourette syndrome or similar, it is unlikely that you would say it with the full contempt unless you actually felt that contempt. Sadly, some people with tourettes do find it hard to keep a job because it is rather poorly understood. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerl...

Udik 8y ago

> It's a name which is associated with a certain level of contempt when applied by a man to a woman. I am not a native speaker, so I might be wrong on this. But I believed that "bitch" is the female version of "dick", isn't it? For example in Italian both are rendered with the same word, only flexed by gender.

Aloha 8y ago
Yeah, more or less. I'd agree.
eric_h 8y ago
In essence those words are used pejoratively in comparable situations. The word “bitch” however literally means “female dog” and is, in fact, used in a non-derogatory way in dog breeding circles. Context is everything, but calling a female coworker a “bitch” is not acceptable in a professional environment.
- Udik 8y ago
  And what about calling a male colleague a "dick"? And of course I agree that it's unprofessional and generally not acceptable; however I disagree that it should be in itself enough to fire somebody. Of course a repeated behaviour of this kind is not acceptable and can be grounds for dismissal.
berberous 8y ago
While it depends on context, "bitch" (and the c-word) can be much more taboo words to use than dick/asshole. Like with the n-word, they have historically been used far more frequently in very hateful contexts -- i.e. men saying truly fucked up and mysoginistic things to women, in the same way that racist or homophobic epithets get used. Dick/asshole are much more neutral words from that perspective, rarely used in such hateful contexts -- for example, while I'd recommend you never do either as an employee, if you want to blow up at your female coworker for her bad behavior I think you'd be much better off just calling her a dick or asshole.
- 8y ago