2 ms·

So, you think it should be perfectly legal for me to circulate a rumor that geofft on hackernews is a pedophile? I think our (the US) defamation laws are prett

So, you think it should be perfectly legal for me to circulate a rumor that geofft on hackernews is a pedophile? I think our (the US) defamation laws are pretty reasonable. It provides a huge leeway for free speech but draws the line at lies that damage a private party. If you're going to publish a serious accusation like that, you had better be able to back it up - and if you can't, you should face legal consequences.

geofft 8y ago
I do, actually. You have no evidence, so spread whatever rumors you like. If you start fabricating evidence then I would like that to be illegal. I think there's also a distinction here between a good-faith claim with minimal evidence by the nature of the claim (e.g. "this happened between the two of us privately") and a bad-faith claim because there's no evidence because it never happened. I'm not sure how exactly to draw the distinction, but I do think that we shouldn't treat people who genuinely believe a thing happened (whether or not it happened) and are unable to provide evidence as equivalent to people who intentionally made up a claim. I think there are ways to figure out which case you're in, but if not, the principle of "presumed innocent until proven guilty" guides us to not punish either. (To me "presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" is a check on government power which would otherwise be unchecked and unappealable, a statement about due process of law. I believe in it in this context; I don't believe in it as an ideal of a good society and non-government behavior, the way I believe in freedom of speech as both a legal right and an ideal of a good society, because I don't think a good society should bring everything before the courts.)
- stickfigure 8y ago
  I admire your principled stand but I think you'd be singing a different tune when people start throwing bricks in your window and slashing your tires. Or worse, depending on where you live: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-18/lynch-mobs-are-india-s-problem-not-whatsapp-s https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-18/lynch-mob... Rumors cause real damage.

geofft 8y ago

I do, actually. You have no evidence, so spread whatever rumors you like. If you start fabricating evidence then I would like that to be illegal. I think there's also a distinction here between a good-faith claim with minimal evidence by the nature of the claim (e.g. "this happened between the two of us privately") and a bad-faith claim because there's no evidence because it never happened. I'm not sure how exactly to draw the distinction, but I do think that we shouldn't treat people who genuinely believe a thing happened (whether or not it happened) and are unable to provide evidence as equivalent to people who intentionally made up a claim. I think there are ways to figure out which case you're in, but if not, the principle of "presumed innocent until proven guilty" guides us to not punish either. (To me "presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" is a check on government power which would otherwise be unchecked and unappealable, a statement about due process of law. I believe in it in this context; I don't believe in it as an ideal of a good society and non-government behavior, the way I believe in freedom of speech as both a legal right and an ideal of a good society, because I don't think a good society should bring everything before the courts.)

stickfigure 8y ago
I admire your principled stand but I think you'd be singing a different tune when people start throwing bricks in your window and slashing your tires. Or worse, depending on where you live: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-18/lynch-mobs-are-india-s-problem-not-whatsapp-s https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-18/lynch-mob... Rumors cause real damage.