7 ms·

I'm sorry you're homeless, that sucks. Can you help me better understand what happened here, though? Because it sounds like you called a coworker a bitch and w

I'm sorry you're homeless, that sucks. Can you help me better understand what happened here, though? Because it sounds like you called a coworker a bitch and was fired over it, and now can't get a recommendation from that job... In which case, can you understand why people might have a hard time sympathizing with your situation? Seems the results would be the same whether or not the story morphed.

TaylorAlexander 8y ago
Agreed. The morphing sounds unfortunate but immaterial here. Calling a coworker a bitch should absolutely be grounds for dismissal in my opinion.
- mpweiher 8y ago
  I think you mis-spelled "grounds for a warning".
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- prepend 8y ago
  That’s interesting as a blanket rule. Using the word should per the definition in rfc2119 [0] means that the recommendation is to dismiss. Not sure if you mean it this way. To me, personal insults are definitely not preferred, but it seems harsh to set a ground rule for dismissal if they are used. Is it just the word “bitch” or would “asshole” or “dickhead” or any pejorative also count? I think there are some categories that fall into this and if a racial slur is used then, to me, that falls into should territory. [0] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
  - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
    This is just my opinion, and I don’t set employment policy anywhere. But at my place of work (a Google/Alphabet company), on my team, nobody behaves that antagonistically to anyone else as far as I know. Calling someone a bitch or a dick is pretty harsh compared to how we handle disagreements. That kind of behavior seems below our expectations in my opinion. I am, however, just an engineer and contractor, not a manager or policy maker.
- Aloha 8y ago
  Why should calling a co-worker a name be grounds for dismissal? grounds for a warning, or other punishment perhaps, but not ground for immediate dismissal.
  - dpwm 8y ago
    It's a name which is associated with a certain level of contempt when applied by a man to a woman. It really depends on the jurisdiction's employment rights and very much on the context as to whether it could be grounds for dismissal, but I can certainly see situations where you could be summarily dismissed even in a jurisdiction with relatively strong employment protections, such as the UK. It's also worth noting that in some cases the employer is placed in a difficult position where they face a difficult choice: do nothing and they run the risk of an employee leaving citing constructive dismissal as management did nothing to handle the bullying; do something and risk retribution from the alleged. In some jurisdictions, sex discrimination in the workplace can lead to a substantial claim, so if you use aggressive language towards a female colleague in a 90% male workplace, HR is going to get twitchy. Allegations in the form of statements are substantive evidence when it comes to employment disputes and if gross misconduct is defined by your workplace as bullying or harassing co-workers, you can expect to be summarily dismissed. Also, employers can and frequently are wrong in their interpretation of what they can and cannot lawfully do. Again, this depends on jurisdiction but some jurisdictions have tribunals where you can take your case without the risk of costs being awarded against you.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Does the same apply if I call a female coworker a name that signifies contempt without being so inflammatory? More to the point: what is wrong with me expressing my contempt for a coworker that should deserve termination, regardless of gender? Or am I expected to be a robot that exudes nothing but faux kindness? If so, save the cult for those with more tolerance for that sort of corporate nonsense.
      - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
        The issue is that you’re letting your issues turn in to personal attacks instead of taking your legitimate complaints to a manager. A workplace where workers take their problems out on each other sounds toxic and unprofessional to me.
Udik 8y ago
Honestly, do you think it's fair to fire from a job someone for a single episode consisting of a single epithet towards a colleague? Say, if only once in a heated discussion with a colleague I call him a dick, is it really so bad that I'll have to lose my job and eventually my home? Also, do you think that getting drunk at work and starting to shout insults against a colleague is the same as using an epithet in a moment of anger- maybe due to the context, etc.?
- komali2 8y ago
  >getting drunk at work Er, yea, I'd understand if a coworker got fired for this... "Getting fired" doesn't really make sense as a comparative bar for workplace behavior, considering it's the most dramatic action a company can do (other than I guess sueing). So asking whether two different actions are both equal because they both could cause firing doesn't make sense to me - presumably someone would get fired for stealing office supplies, or pissing on their boss's desk, or throwing a monitor out the window, but that doesn't say anything about how heinous an individual action is. I do think it's fair to fire someone for losing control so much that their level of respect for a colleague drops to the point that they'll level an epithet at them. No matter how frustrated I get with my team, or they get with me, I expect there to always be that baseline of respect.

TaylorAlexander 8y ago

Agreed. The morphing sounds unfortunate but immaterial here. Calling a coworker a bitch should absolutely be grounds for dismissal in my opinion.

mpweiher 8y ago
I think you mis-spelled "grounds for a warning".
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
prepend 8y ago
That’s interesting as a blanket rule. Using the word should per the definition in rfc2119 [0] means that the recommendation is to dismiss. Not sure if you mean it this way. To me, personal insults are definitely not preferred, but it seems harsh to set a ground rule for dismissal if they are used. Is it just the word “bitch” or would “asshole” or “dickhead” or any pejorative also count? I think there are some categories that fall into this and if a racial slur is used then, to me, that falls into should territory. [0] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  This is just my opinion, and I don’t set employment policy anywhere. But at my place of work (a Google/Alphabet company), on my team, nobody behaves that antagonistically to anyone else as far as I know. Calling someone a bitch or a dick is pretty harsh compared to how we handle disagreements. That kind of behavior seems below our expectations in my opinion. I am, however, just an engineer and contractor, not a manager or policy maker.
Aloha 8y ago
Why should calling a co-worker a name be grounds for dismissal? grounds for a warning, or other punishment perhaps, but not ground for immediate dismissal.
- dpwm 8y ago
  It's a name which is associated with a certain level of contempt when applied by a man to a woman. It really depends on the jurisdiction's employment rights and very much on the context as to whether it could be grounds for dismissal, but I can certainly see situations where you could be summarily dismissed even in a jurisdiction with relatively strong employment protections, such as the UK. It's also worth noting that in some cases the employer is placed in a difficult position where they face a difficult choice: do nothing and they run the risk of an employee leaving citing constructive dismissal as management did nothing to handle the bullying; do something and risk retribution from the alleged. In some jurisdictions, sex discrimination in the workplace can lead to a substantial claim, so if you use aggressive language towards a female colleague in a 90% male workplace, HR is going to get twitchy. Allegations in the form of statements are substantive evidence when it comes to employment disputes and if gross misconduct is defined by your workplace as bullying or harassing co-workers, you can expect to be summarily dismissed. Also, employers can and frequently are wrong in their interpretation of what they can and cannot lawfully do. Again, this depends on jurisdiction but some jurisdictions have tribunals where you can take your case without the risk of costs being awarded against you.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Does the same apply if I call a female coworker a name that signifies contempt without being so inflammatory? More to the point: what is wrong with me expressing my contempt for a coworker that should deserve termination, regardless of gender? Or am I expected to be a robot that exudes nothing but faux kindness? If so, save the cult for those with more tolerance for that sort of corporate nonsense.
    - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
      The issue is that you’re letting your issues turn in to personal attacks instead of taking your legitimate complaints to a manager. A workplace where workers take their problems out on each other sounds toxic and unprofessional to me.

Udik 8y ago

Honestly, do you think it's fair to fire from a job someone for a single episode consisting of a single epithet towards a colleague? Say, if only once in a heated discussion with a colleague I call him a dick, is it really so bad that I'll have to lose my job and eventually my home? Also, do you think that getting drunk at work and starting to shout insults against a colleague is the same as using an epithet in a moment of anger- maybe due to the context, etc.?

komali2 8y ago
>getting drunk at work Er, yea, I'd understand if a coworker got fired for this... "Getting fired" doesn't really make sense as a comparative bar for workplace behavior, considering it's the most dramatic action a company can do (other than I guess sueing). So asking whether two different actions are both equal because they both could cause firing doesn't make sense to me - presumably someone would get fired for stealing office supplies, or pissing on their boss's desk, or throwing a monitor out the window, but that doesn't say anything about how heinous an individual action is. I do think it's fair to fire someone for losing control so much that their level of respect for a colleague drops to the point that they'll level an epithet at them. No matter how frustrated I get with my team, or they get with me, I expect there to always be that baseline of respect.