3 ms·

> In which way they are trying to put the italian people first? I'm not saying they are succeeding. I'm saying they're trying. > The abolition of Fornero (pen

> In which way they are trying to put the italian people first? I'm not saying they are succeeding. I'm saying they're trying. > The abolition of Fornero (pension reform) will not solve any issue but will only cause more problem down the road It will solve the problem for people who are, right now, too old to stay at work. At least they're not saving pointless banks, aren't they? But, sure, it could be even worse for young people. > re-branding of the "unemployment benefits" into "citizenship income". Universal Basic Income is deemed necessary even by people like Elon Musk, do you know that? Sure, citizenship income won't work the same way. It's quite small in comparison with UBW. What I agree is that, probably, Italy, like other countries, would need totally different and more drastic measures. It's hard to change things in a country where retired people earn large sums of money that they don't deserve (because they haven't saved for that). But, I don't trust the markets, the finance sector or the economic system to change that; those "tools" are used by people who just want to extract the maximum rent, and they'll always use them to achieve that: extract the maximum rent. Unless we start aiming at a different target, which could be "a fair distribution of basic wealth and income", we won't reach a different outcome. All of that, IMHO.

toyg 8y ago
I agree on some things the current bunch of muppets is doing (as opposed to the previous bunch of muppets, I am not partisan), but some of the arguments put forward are very dangerous. > At least they're not saving pointless banks That would be the same pointless banks who allow people to take out pointless mortgages to live in pointless houses, or to finance pointless businesses who pay pointless salaries. I did not like the way the world got out of the 2008 crisis (I would have nationalised the shit out of the EU/US banking sector, it was a golden opportunity to make history), but letting huge banks fail would have been world-ending. > Universal Basic Income is deemed necessary [...] citizenship income won't work the same way Then why do you mention it to justify a Blair-style "workfare" law that has nothing to do with UBI (for one thing, it won't be universal, which is kinda the point)? Beyond the propaganda, there will be no UBI - it's just a reshaping of unemployment benefits to make certain areas of the country electorally beholden to a certain party, like it happened in the "good old days". Quoting a holy text, "you were supposed to bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness". > I don't trust the markets, the finance sector or the economic system to change that On that I agree, but the realities of the XXI century are that the system is bigger than any single country, and solutions must be co-operative or won't be. I trust demagogues even less than bankers.
- patrickg_zill 8y ago
  There were plenty of banks that were solvent and solid. But the politically connected big banks were not. They could have been reorganized but they were not. In fact not even 1 of the senior management were punished.
andrepd 8y ago
>Universal Basic Income is deemed necessary even by people like Elon Musk, do you know that? I have no idea what you mean by this.
UncleEntity 8y ago
> Universal Basic Income is deemed necessary even by people like Elon Musk, do you know that? Providing UBI through debt financing is a recipe for disaster. Someone, somewhere has to earn this "income" so you can't just magically produce it out of thin air, if the Italian tax base can't service the current debt then how is it supposed to service further debt to provide a "citizenship income"?

toyg 8y ago

I agree on some things the current bunch of muppets is doing (as opposed to the previous bunch of muppets, I am not partisan), but some of the arguments put forward are very dangerous. > At least they're not saving pointless banks That would be the same pointless banks who allow people to take out pointless mortgages to live in pointless houses, or to finance pointless businesses who pay pointless salaries. I did not like the way the world got out of the 2008 crisis (I would have nationalised the shit out of the EU/US banking sector, it was a golden opportunity to make history), but letting huge banks fail would have been world-ending. > Universal Basic Income is deemed necessary [...] citizenship income won't work the same way Then why do you mention it to justify a Blair-style "workfare" law that has nothing to do with UBI (for one thing, it won't be universal, which is kinda the point)? Beyond the propaganda, there will be no UBI - it's just a reshaping of unemployment benefits to make certain areas of the country electorally beholden to a certain party, like it happened in the "good old days". Quoting a holy text, "you were supposed to bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness". > I don't trust the markets, the finance sector or the economic system to change that On that I agree, but the realities of the XXI century are that the system is bigger than any single country, and solutions must be co-operative or won't be. I trust demagogues even less than bankers.

patrickg_zill 8y ago
There were plenty of banks that were solvent and solid. But the politically connected big banks were not. They could have been reorganized but they were not. In fact not even 1 of the senior management were punished.

andrepd 8y ago

>Universal Basic Income is deemed necessary even by people like Elon Musk, do you know that? I have no idea what you mean by this.

UncleEntity 8y ago

> Universal Basic Income is deemed necessary even by people like Elon Musk, do you know that? Providing UBI through debt financing is a recipe for disaster. Someone, somewhere has to earn this "income" so you can't just magically produce it out of thin air, if the Italian tax base can't service the current debt then how is it supposed to service further debt to provide a "citizenship income"?