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I think Italy’s issues are more to do with its government and corruption than the EU. The EU seems to be working for a lot of the other countries just fine econ

I think Italy’s issues are more to do with its government and corruption than the EU. The EU seems to be working for a lot of the other countries just fine economically.

danieldk 8y ago
Despite the shortcomings of the EU, national politicians are also using the EU for shifting the blame of their own failings. In the longer term, this undermines trust in the EU and gives rise to populism. That’s not to say that people who vote populist don’t have a point. It’s hard to understand why companies are making billions in profits, while people are scrambling to make ends meet.
- Applejinx 8y ago
  I would think that was very easy to understand. Unless you are stuck on some axiom that what's good for the companies is good for… humans. I think it's fairly self evident at this point that you've got people, you've got companies, you've got capitalism as a whole. It's a pecking order and they are somewhat to extremely antagonistic. People, as the most powerless entities in the equation, are very much on the way out.
  - Applejinx 8y ago
    You can downvote all you like, but all this is to be expected and is unsurprising. Humans are to these large collective entities or even larger self-organizing entities like political systems, as cells are to humans. There is no reason to assume a humanocentric viewpoint here, and if assuming one leads to continuous dismay and surprise, you've got to widen your perspective and acknowledge higher-order organisms when they're this obvious. It's like a sort of Singularity. Why would it be surprising if we fail to immediately recognize it for what it is?
alecco 8y ago
The EU lured all the Mediterranean countries with sudden cheap credit and currency stability. But they didn't think of the consequences. Too cheap credit brings inefficiency and breeds corruption. There was a reason those countries had bad rates before joining. And most of the causes of those issues were swept under the rug. Now who is going to pay for the consequences?
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  If only we could wind the clock back ... But we can't so have to deal with what is in front of us right now.
- everybodyknows 8y ago
  Okay ... but who is "they"? A few individual, grey-haired heads, filled with the history of similar fiascos, did think of consequences: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Monetary_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Monetary_Union But the levers of political power were, then as now, in hands guided not by stale history, but by fresh opportunity for self-advancement.
  - alecco 8y ago
    > but who is "they"? Everyone involved.
RobertoG 8y ago
"The EU seems to be working for a lot of the other countries just fine economically." I assume you mean the Euro here (not the EU) What are those countries?

I think Italy’s issues are more to do with its government and corruption than the EU. The EU seems to be working for a lot of the other countries just fine economically.

danieldk 8y ago

Despite the shortcomings of the EU, national politicians are also using the EU for shifting the blame of their own failings. In the longer term, this undermines trust in the EU and gives rise to populism. That’s not to say that people who vote populist don’t have a point. It’s hard to understand why companies are making billions in profits, while people are scrambling to make ends meet.

Applejinx 8y ago
I would think that was very easy to understand. Unless you are stuck on some axiom that what's good for the companies is good for… humans. I think it's fairly self evident at this point that you've got people, you've got companies, you've got capitalism as a whole. It's a pecking order and they are somewhat to extremely antagonistic. People, as the most powerless entities in the equation, are very much on the way out.
- Applejinx 8y ago
  You can downvote all you like, but all this is to be expected and is unsurprising. Humans are to these large collective entities or even larger self-organizing entities like political systems, as cells are to humans. There is no reason to assume a humanocentric viewpoint here, and if assuming one leads to continuous dismay and surprise, you've got to widen your perspective and acknowledge higher-order organisms when they're this obvious. It's like a sort of Singularity. Why would it be surprising if we fail to immediately recognize it for what it is?

alecco 8y ago

The EU lured all the Mediterranean countries with sudden cheap credit and currency stability. But they didn't think of the consequences. Too cheap credit brings inefficiency and breeds corruption. There was a reason those countries had bad rates before joining. And most of the causes of those issues were swept under the rug. Now who is going to pay for the consequences?

tonyedgecombe 8y ago
If only we could wind the clock back ... But we can't so have to deal with what is in front of us right now.
everybodyknows 8y ago
Okay ... but who is "they"? A few individual, grey-haired heads, filled with the history of similar fiascos, did think of consequences: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Monetary_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Monetary_Union But the levers of political power were, then as now, in hands guided not by stale history, but by fresh opportunity for self-advancement.
- alecco 8y ago
  > but who is "they"? Everyone involved.

RobertoG 8y ago

"The EU seems to be working for a lot of the other countries just fine economically." I assume you mean the Euro here (not the EU) What are those countries?