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I never really understood why lower tax is pro-wealth. What does it really mean? I am not trolling, I am really curious. Let's say I see some opportunity to gro

I never really understood why lower tax is pro-wealth. What does it really mean? I am not trolling, I am really curious. Let's say I see some opportunity to grow my wealth, am I going to look at the current tax level and if it's above certain threshold I am just gonna say screw it, I am not taking it?

mikekij 8y ago
A rational investor is concerned with risk-adjust returns after taxes. The fact that capital gains rates are lower than income rates allows an investor to accept a higher level of risk than if the two tax rates were lower.
- perfunctory 8y ago
  Ok, but this has only to do with relative tax rates - capital gains vs. income. It says nothing about absolute rates.
anonymous5133 8y ago
Yup, exactly which is why the rates for capital gains are reduced. If you make the capital gains high enough the reward you get for taking the risk won't be high enough. I think it has a bigger deterrence effect with non-capital gains income. Once you start getting in the higher income tax brackets, it isn't really worth it to put in more hours for additional income when 50% of it is taken in income tax off the top. That's how I look at it at least.
- perfunctory 8y ago
  I am paying 52% income tax rate in the upper bracket. I doesn't stop me from trying to increase my income. Clarification - I am not making any claims as to whether I support this tax level or not. I am just saying it doesn't discourage me from trying to get ahead.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    For my own account, I pay a similar marginal rate (my state tax is slightly lower than yours, but all in I’m at 50-ish percent). That distorts my willingness to employ lower skilled help. I change my own brakes because the $250 in labor/markup that I might have to pay costs me $500 to earn. If I don’t have a productive way to earn more than $500 in exchange for the small time savings, my family is better off with my changing brakes than working on something else and a mechanic doesn’t get 2.5 hours of pay and some shop loses out on their cut. Same story for lawn care and other tasks that could easily help support employment of some workers.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    In economic modeling of course it does, and in terms of individual experience, which can vary from that , Im willing to challenge it as well. If they told you that if you volunteered for government on saturdays, they would exempt you from income tax altogether, would you do it?
    - TACIXAT 8y ago
      I would, that's a great deal.
      - conanbatt 8y ago
        Im pretty sure most people would: its working more time, for paying less taxes. An intuitive example of how taxation does affect the amount of time worked, at any income level.
- perfunctory 8y ago
  > reward you get for taking the risk won't be high enough. Also, as long as the tax rate is less than 100%, the reward will be higher than 0, which is what you get if you don't invest at all.
  - SaintGhurka 8y ago
    That reasoning is correct if the investment is risk-free. But what if you are investing in stocks or corporate bonds or a broadway play or a promising health technology company like Theranos? There is a non-trivial chance that your reward will be less than 0 - and it could even be a complete wipeout. The low capital gains rate is meant to encourage people to put money at risk rather than sit on it.
    - perfunctory 8y ago
      We are talking about risk-adjusted return. That's right. So as I long as expected risk-adjusted return is positive, a rational investor is supposed to invest regardless of the tax rate. I would think.
      - socketnaut 8y ago
        It's not that simple because taxes modify gains but not losses. Imagine we bet $1 on a coin toss. The expected value for either of us is $0. Now imagine the winner is required to pay 10% tax on his proceeds. The expected value becomes (-$1.00 + $.90)/2 = -$0.05.
        brorfred 8y ago
        But aren't business losses tax deductible?
        perfunctory 8y ago
        Very good example. Let's look at it. Note that the new expected value will be negative regardless of the tax rate. No matter how low it is. Even if the tax is 0%, the expected value is still, as you pointed out, $0. So a rational investor would not bet on this coin toss regardless. Also, as brorfred pointed out, capital losses are deductible, afaik.
- SamReidHughes 8y ago
  Capital gains tax is calculated from nominal gains instead of inflation-adjusted gains. That's one reason it's lower.
1999 8y ago
I'm not really considering incentives. I think most people will basically spend their whole lives working, even if you take half their money and throw it down a hole -- maybe especially even if you do that. To increase wealth the lower tax will have to mean more money under the control of the individual. It doesn't guarantee savings and investment but it makes it possible. For the portion that is taxed, you don't control consumption versus savings, you're locked into the same outcome as everyone else.
- TheDong 8y ago
  One problem you may be encountering with your phrasing is that you aren't distinguishing between two very different things: 1. A lower tax for everyone, including the super-rich. 2. A lower tax for the poor/middle-class, but a progressive and higher tax for the rich. The first, lowering the tax-rate for everyone, only really helps the super-rich in the first place. The poor currently pay relatively few taxes. Lowering the tax-rate across the board will result in the rich taking home a larger absolute increase in wealth, so it will shift further spending power to the rich. The second is a common enough socialist talking point, and if that's what you mean to talk about, saying "lower taxes" is a terrible way to do it and will put socialists against you. I don't really see how you think lowering the tax rate will increase individual wealth for anyone not already doing well. If we reduce the tax rate, that means public transit, healthcare, and schools (all heavily tax subsidized) will suffer, and any change in those disproportionally impacts the poor. I know you're not literally saying "fuck the poor, they pay negligible taxes now, so let's cut taxes and raise their healthcare costs by crippling the government", but talking about cutting taxes across the board really isn't far from saying "give the wealthy lots more money, the poor a tiny bit more money, and cut funding on social safety nets that only help the poor."
conanbatt 8y ago
Yes, in microeconomic modeling you find that when your income increases, two competing forces go into effect: that you want to work more because you make more money for each unit you provide, and the "consumption" of leisure goes up because it is now affordable. Which one wins is something to figure out empirically, but look at the fact that europe has more leisure than the US does, even at the same level of income.

mikekij 8y ago

A rational investor is concerned with risk-adjust returns after taxes. The fact that capital gains rates are lower than income rates allows an investor to accept a higher level of risk than if the two tax rates were lower.

perfunctory 8y ago
Ok, but this has only to do with relative tax rates - capital gains vs. income. It says nothing about absolute rates.

anonymous5133 8y ago

Yup, exactly which is why the rates for capital gains are reduced. If you make the capital gains high enough the reward you get for taking the risk won't be high enough. I think it has a bigger deterrence effect with non-capital gains income. Once you start getting in the higher income tax brackets, it isn't really worth it to put in more hours for additional income when 50% of it is taken in income tax off the top. That's how I look at it at least.

perfunctory 8y ago
I am paying 52% income tax rate in the upper bracket. I doesn't stop me from trying to increase my income. Clarification - I am not making any claims as to whether I support this tax level or not. I am just saying it doesn't discourage me from trying to get ahead.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  For my own account, I pay a similar marginal rate (my state tax is slightly lower than yours, but all in I’m at 50-ish percent). That distorts my willingness to employ lower skilled help. I change my own brakes because the $250 in labor/markup that I might have to pay costs me $500 to earn. If I don’t have a productive way to earn more than $500 in exchange for the small time savings, my family is better off with my changing brakes than working on something else and a mechanic doesn’t get 2.5 hours of pay and some shop loses out on their cut. Same story for lawn care and other tasks that could easily help support employment of some workers.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  In economic modeling of course it does, and in terms of individual experience, which can vary from that , Im willing to challenge it as well. If they told you that if you volunteered for government on saturdays, they would exempt you from income tax altogether, would you do it?
  - TACIXAT 8y ago
    I would, that's a great deal.
    - conanbatt 8y ago
      Im pretty sure most people would: its working more time, for paying less taxes. An intuitive example of how taxation does affect the amount of time worked, at any income level.
perfunctory 8y ago
> reward you get for taking the risk won't be high enough. Also, as long as the tax rate is less than 100%, the reward will be higher than 0, which is what you get if you don't invest at all.
- SaintGhurka 8y ago
  That reasoning is correct if the investment is risk-free. But what if you are investing in stocks or corporate bonds or a broadway play or a promising health technology company like Theranos? There is a non-trivial chance that your reward will be less than 0 - and it could even be a complete wipeout. The low capital gains rate is meant to encourage people to put money at risk rather than sit on it.
  - perfunctory 8y ago
    We are talking about risk-adjusted return. That's right. So as I long as expected risk-adjusted return is positive, a rational investor is supposed to invest regardless of the tax rate. I would think.
    - socketnaut 8y ago
      It's not that simple because taxes modify gains but not losses. Imagine we bet $1 on a coin toss. The expected value for either of us is $0. Now imagine the winner is required to pay 10% tax on his proceeds. The expected value becomes (-$1.00 + $.90)/2 = -$0.05.
      - brorfred 8y ago
        But aren't business losses tax deductible?
      - perfunctory 8y ago
        Very good example. Let's look at it. Note that the new expected value will be negative regardless of the tax rate. No matter how low it is. Even if the tax is 0%, the expected value is still, as you pointed out, $0. So a rational investor would not bet on this coin toss regardless. Also, as brorfred pointed out, capital losses are deductible, afaik.
SamReidHughes 8y ago
Capital gains tax is calculated from nominal gains instead of inflation-adjusted gains. That's one reason it's lower.

1999 8y ago

I'm not really considering incentives. I think most people will basically spend their whole lives working, even if you take half their money and throw it down a hole -- maybe especially even if you do that. To increase wealth the lower tax will have to mean more money under the control of the individual. It doesn't guarantee savings and investment but it makes it possible. For the portion that is taxed, you don't control consumption versus savings, you're locked into the same outcome as everyone else.

TheDong 8y ago
One problem you may be encountering with your phrasing is that you aren't distinguishing between two very different things: 1. A lower tax for everyone, including the super-rich. 2. A lower tax for the poor/middle-class, but a progressive and higher tax for the rich. The first, lowering the tax-rate for everyone, only really helps the super-rich in the first place. The poor currently pay relatively few taxes. Lowering the tax-rate across the board will result in the rich taking home a larger absolute increase in wealth, so it will shift further spending power to the rich. The second is a common enough socialist talking point, and if that's what you mean to talk about, saying "lower taxes" is a terrible way to do it and will put socialists against you. I don't really see how you think lowering the tax rate will increase individual wealth for anyone not already doing well. If we reduce the tax rate, that means public transit, healthcare, and schools (all heavily tax subsidized) will suffer, and any change in those disproportionally impacts the poor. I know you're not literally saying "fuck the poor, they pay negligible taxes now, so let's cut taxes and raise their healthcare costs by crippling the government", but talking about cutting taxes across the board really isn't far from saying "give the wealthy lots more money, the poor a tiny bit more money, and cut funding on social safety nets that only help the poor."

conanbatt 8y ago

Yes, in microeconomic modeling you find that when your income increases, two competing forces go into effect: that you want to work more because you make more money for each unit you provide, and the "consumption" of leisure goes up because it is now affordable. Which one wins is something to figure out empirically, but look at the fact that europe has more leisure than the US does, even at the same level of income.