4 ms·

It's interesting how bad trends persist even though most people say they are a problem. Open office is one, excessive meetings is one, E-mail overload, Slack an

It's interesting how bad trends persist even though most people say they are a problem. Open office is one, excessive meetings is one, E-mail overload, Slack and so on. My theory is that the people in power (management) quickly get to the level where everything they do in their jobs requires talking to multiple people and coordinating and they apply that need to everybody's work so they think all work is about "Collaboration" and "Connecting". At least for engineering I think there is not that much need for constant collaboration but there is a big need for focused work which is hard to do in an open office. In addition open offices even fail for collaboration. I work in a cube farm with some open office space and I rarely see people actually collaborate there. Instead people have headsets and are desperately trying to focus. I used to work in team rooms before and there we talked to each other a lot in comparison.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
The primary motivator I think is just cost. It costs probably less than 1/2 in terms of square footage and overhead. Expenses are easy and tangible, the social stuff, not so much, so the 'hard data' of cost efficiency wins. I've worked in open spaces and it drives me absolutely batty, I can't get anything done. I refuse to consider that mid-level business professionals should be resigned to wearing 'headphones' to have to keep the noise out, it's undignified.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  " I refuse to consider that mid-level business professionals should be resigned to wearing 'headphones' to have to keep the noise out, it's undignified. " Agreed. It feels very disrespectful.
sametmax 8y ago
Don't look so far. It's just cheaper. Also it gives managers the feeling they can avoid people slacking off because everbody see what you are doing.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  "It's just cheaper." Is that really true? We have a ton of meeting rooms and other space that also use up a lot of space. You don't need meeting rooms if people can sit together in their offices.
- mc32 8y ago
  Absolutely agree with that. I’ve also seen it cargo culted. It’s been implemented because, “well, if successful multibillion dollar companies are doing it, it must be good... it's probably part their success.” Of course pointing out the negative aspects and asking questions automatically got you labeled as “not being a team player.”
  - existencebox 8y ago
    This is an issue on which I feel strongly enough to speak about on an account I've connected to my employer. (I am a Microsoftie, and not because I think you believe this, but to support your point) It's _certainly not_ part of our success. I'd even go so far as to say our success is in spite of it. I've seen many engineers, including the single most competent dev I've ever worked with, migrate to other companies as their teams were moved out of personal offices or into larger open offices. I've also seen my own (and my teammate's) work and culture suffer, as we have to work later, fight distractions, and often politik internally to fight for the "best seat" (actually having one wall). This is, to me, an absurd situation to put professional adults in. This process is only partially complete, and changes take a while to take effect, so it's to be seen what the tractable results are, but in the same way I called out our bad choice by the manner in which we dissolved SDETs, the push for open offices is a canonically bad choice. (This is only my opinion, I in no way speak for the company etc etc)
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      The funny thing is that years ago when MS was at the top of the world MS always pointed out that every dev had a private office and made it sound like that was the secret of their success.
EngineerBetter 8y ago
Folks who practice pairing and mobbing would probably disagree about constant collaboration.
- Xeago 8y ago
  I have yet to see mobbing happen in our open-office plan whereas it was very common in our team-room setup before. Don’t want to disturb the teams sitting right besides us.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    Exactly! In team rooms you can actually be loud and energetic whereas in open space everything needs to be hushed.
    - styfle 8y ago
      The worst is when someone walks over and starts talking but no one knows who they are talking to: Just me? My boss? Everyone? Is it rude if I don’t look and continue to focus on my work? Everything can be heard and seen in an open office so I think it makes communication worse.
  - Corrado 8y ago
    Our open office layout was so quiet it felt like working in a Library. Half the time I was scared that my headphones were too loud and disturbing others around me. It was very difficult to actually talk to another person in my area because it echoed and I felt like I had to whisper everything. Maybe if we would have had a noise canceling system or something it would have been different.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

The primary motivator I think is just cost. It costs probably less than 1/2 in terms of square footage and overhead. Expenses are easy and tangible, the social stuff, not so much, so the 'hard data' of cost efficiency wins. I've worked in open spaces and it drives me absolutely batty, I can't get anything done. I refuse to consider that mid-level business professionals should be resigned to wearing 'headphones' to have to keep the noise out, it's undignified.

maxxxxx 8y ago
" I refuse to consider that mid-level business professionals should be resigned to wearing 'headphones' to have to keep the noise out, it's undignified. " Agreed. It feels very disrespectful.

sametmax 8y ago

Don't look so far. It's just cheaper. Also it gives managers the feeling they can avoid people slacking off because everbody see what you are doing.

maxxxxx 8y ago
"It's just cheaper." Is that really true? We have a ton of meeting rooms and other space that also use up a lot of space. You don't need meeting rooms if people can sit together in their offices.
mc32 8y ago
Absolutely agree with that. I’ve also seen it cargo culted. It’s been implemented because, “well, if successful multibillion dollar companies are doing it, it must be good... it's probably part their success.” Of course pointing out the negative aspects and asking questions automatically got you labeled as “not being a team player.”
- existencebox 8y ago
  This is an issue on which I feel strongly enough to speak about on an account I've connected to my employer. (I am a Microsoftie, and not because I think you believe this, but to support your point) It's _certainly not_ part of our success. I'd even go so far as to say our success is in spite of it. I've seen many engineers, including the single most competent dev I've ever worked with, migrate to other companies as their teams were moved out of personal offices or into larger open offices. I've also seen my own (and my teammate's) work and culture suffer, as we have to work later, fight distractions, and often politik internally to fight for the "best seat" (actually having one wall). This is, to me, an absurd situation to put professional adults in. This process is only partially complete, and changes take a while to take effect, so it's to be seen what the tractable results are, but in the same way I called out our bad choice by the manner in which we dissolved SDETs, the push for open offices is a canonically bad choice. (This is only my opinion, I in no way speak for the company etc etc)
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    The funny thing is that years ago when MS was at the top of the world MS always pointed out that every dev had a private office and made it sound like that was the secret of their success.

EngineerBetter 8y ago

Folks who practice pairing and mobbing would probably disagree about constant collaboration.

Xeago 8y ago
I have yet to see mobbing happen in our open-office plan whereas it was very common in our team-room setup before. Don’t want to disturb the teams sitting right besides us.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Exactly! In team rooms you can actually be loud and energetic whereas in open space everything needs to be hushed.
  - styfle 8y ago
    The worst is when someone walks over and starts talking but no one knows who they are talking to: Just me? My boss? Everyone? Is it rude if I don’t look and continue to focus on my work? Everything can be heard and seen in an open office so I think it makes communication worse.
- Corrado 8y ago
  Our open office layout was so quiet it felt like working in a Library. Half the time I was scared that my headphones were too loud and disturbing others around me. It was very difficult to actually talk to another person in my area because it echoed and I felt like I had to whisper everything. Maybe if we would have had a noise canceling system or something it would have been different.