5 ms·

I generally agree with everything you've said except for the act of settling a sex discrimination lawsuit being a negative signal. The existence of a sex discri

by pg_bot 8y ago

I generally agree with everything you've said except for the act of settling a sex discrimination lawsuit being a negative signal. The existence of a sex discrimination lawsuit is certainly not a positive signal for any prospective employer, but it takes both parties to come to an agreement to settle. Settlement is also the overwhelmingly likely outcome of most lawsuits (> 90% chance). The prospect of going to trial concentrates the mind wonderfully. A clarity descends. Sometimes you learn things about your own case that you didn't know before. (that it sucks - maybe) Trials can be unpredictable, better to come to an agreement that both parties can live with than to roll the dice.

Paradigma11 8y ago
The problem is that the harasser is most likely in a position of power and can afford to live comfortably with quite a few such agreements.
- pg_bot 8y ago
  I don't think you understand the difference between civil and criminal law. Almost all sexual harassment cases are going to be civil cases, where the only recompense a defendant can expect is monetary. No one is going to jail over a typical sexual harassment case. Now, if a crime such as sexual battery or rape was committed, criminal charges would likely follow. If you win a case you get will get paid whatever is due to you, a wrong will be righted and people will move on with their lives. I understand that you may be dissatisfied with this arrangement, but we don't have time machines so there is no other recourse. All lawsuits fall on a spectrum, there are strong and frivolous cases that settle and go to trial. It's impossible to make a judgement call without hearing the details of a case. If you want to risk going to trial on principle, you may find out that principles are very expensive.
  - DonHopkins 8y ago
    Fortunately we can all read the details of this particular case in the lawsuit, enabling us to more fairly and easily make a judgement call. https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discrimination.pdf https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discriminat...
- titanomachy 8y ago
  Is discrimination the same thing as harassment?
  - DonHopkins 8y ago
    Would you consider this discrimination or harassment? https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discrimination.pdf https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discriminat... >Euen Thompson, an IT Support Lead, on November 16, 2016, gave a tutorial to a group of seven new hires, including two women, how to use Magic Leap’s IT equipment and resources. One woman asked Thompson a question in front of the group and Thompson responded, “Yeah, women always have trouble with computers.” The women in the group, in apparent disbelief, asked Thompson to repeat what he said and Thompson replied, “In IT we have a saying; stay away from the Three Os: Orientals, Old People and Ovaries.”
    - stallmanite 8y ago
      Putting aside the rest of that trainwreck, asians (pardon me "orientals") are bad at computers now? I missed the memo on that
  - DonHopkins 8y ago
    How about this, it sounds like harassment to me: https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discrimination.pdf https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discriminat... >Campbell met September 28, 2016 with Magic Leap CFO Henry and Head of Operations Tina Tuli for a conference call with the CFO and leadership team at R/GA, an award-winning international advertising agency that was Magic Leap’s advertising agency of record. During the call, Henry said of the product under development, “I’m sitting here between two beautiful ladies. They’re not going to want to put a big ugly device over their pretty faces. And I have an office with glass doors, I don’t want people to see me with these beautiful girls with ugly things on their faces.” Later, one of the male R/GA executives on the call asked Campbell if Henry frequently made sexist comments like he had made. A female executive at R/GA also was offended by Henry’s remarks.
  - DonHopkins 8y ago
DonHopkins 8y ago
The whole point of the lawsuit was all about how Magic Leap's company culture and product plans and demos and self image all revolved around adolescent male egos and sexist fantasies, and excluded women. Tannen Cambell, who filed the lawsuit, was actually hired for the express purpose of solving Magic Leap's recognized "pink/blue problem", but was rebuffed and ignored. They knew they had a problem, and even gave it a name, but they refused to solve it. Read the lawsuit: https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discrimination.pdf https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discriminat... >Campbell, one of whose responsibilities was to help Magic Leap with the “pink/blue problem,” had to endure hostile environment sex discrimination while proposing ways, not only to make Magic Leap’s product more woman friendly, but also to make the workplace more diverse and inclusive. Campbell was terminated after (and because) she, like the child in “The Emperor’s New Clothes” who blurted out that the Emperor was naked, challenged Magic Leap’s CEO, Rony Abovitz, to acknowledge the depths of misogyny in Magic Leap’s culture and take steps to correct an gender imbalance that negatively affects the company’s core culture and renders it so dysfunctional it continues to delay the launch of a product that attracted billions of investment dollars. Campbell also raised concerns that what Magic Leap showed the public in marketing material was not what the product actually could do—admonitions ignored in favor of her male colleagues’ assertions that the images and videos presented on Magic Leap’s website and on YouTube were “aspirational,” and not Magic Leap’s version of “alternate facts.” Did all of that suddenly change after the lawsuit was settled? Because if it did suddenly tangibly change, then that might be evidence that settling a sex discrimination lawsuit by changing their behavior was a positive signal. But if they only forked over a big pile of hush money, signed non-disparagement agreements and gag orders, and went their separate ways, and Magic Leap didn't actually change their culture, then I don't think you could consider it positive sign or a constructive settlement for anyone other than the woman who was paid to keep her mouth shut.
- pg_bot 8y ago
  So I took the time to read through the entire complaint and I hope she settled. I wouldn't characterize this lawsuit as frivolous, but a lot of what is put forward is extremely flimsy. For example, it is perfectly fine to criticize someone who works at the same company in a slack channel if they're doing poor work. There are a lot of claims, but not many specifics to back up those claims. She paints Abovitz as a poor leader, being constantly mired in agendaless meetings and struck with a strong case of analysis paralysis. While bad leaders often do illegal things, it is not illegal to be a bad leader. Not every requested product change is ignored without cause. It's not shocking to have to ask for a promotion. Organizing speaking engagements with high profile female executives that command well over six figures per speaking engagement is unrealistic. Magic Leap is certainly not the first company to over hype the capabilities of its product. I do find it curious that while Ms Campbell was hired to solve this "pink/blue" problem, none of her proposed solutions involved talking to potential female consumers about the product. If your solution to "How are we going to market this product to women when we release in Q1 next year?" is to raise a new generation of female engineers, your company will die. Also, I would like to point out that recognition of a problem does not guarantee that there is a solution to it. I'm certain that the makers of needlepoint kits would love to sell more embroidery materials to men. I'm less certain that there is a way of doing so. I did like this excerpt from 25: "A chaotic discussion with people talking over each other followed. The group made no decisions and none of the proposed changes were made to the design." That accurately describes any large group product meeting I've ever attended.

by pg_bot 8y ago

Paradigma11 8y ago

The problem is that the harasser is most likely in a position of power and can afford to live comfortably with quite a few such agreements.

pg_bot 8y ago
I don't think you understand the difference between civil and criminal law. Almost all sexual harassment cases are going to be civil cases, where the only recompense a defendant can expect is monetary. No one is going to jail over a typical sexual harassment case. Now, if a crime such as sexual battery or rape was committed, criminal charges would likely follow. If you win a case you get will get paid whatever is due to you, a wrong will be righted and people will move on with their lives. I understand that you may be dissatisfied with this arrangement, but we don't have time machines so there is no other recourse. All lawsuits fall on a spectrum, there are strong and frivolous cases that settle and go to trial. It's impossible to make a judgement call without hearing the details of a case. If you want to risk going to trial on principle, you may find out that principles are very expensive.
- DonHopkins 8y ago
  Fortunately we can all read the details of this particular case in the lawsuit, enabling us to more fairly and easily make a judgement call. https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discrimination.pdf https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discriminat...
titanomachy 8y ago
Is discrimination the same thing as harassment?
- DonHopkins 8y ago
  Would you consider this discrimination or harassment? https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discrimination.pdf https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discriminat... >Euen Thompson, an IT Support Lead, on November 16, 2016, gave a tutorial to a group of seven new hires, including two women, how to use Magic Leap’s IT equipment and resources. One woman asked Thompson a question in front of the group and Thompson responded, “Yeah, women always have trouble with computers.” The women in the group, in apparent disbelief, asked Thompson to repeat what he said and Thompson replied, “In IT we have a saying; stay away from the Three Os: Orientals, Old People and Ovaries.”
  - stallmanite 8y ago
    Putting aside the rest of that trainwreck, asians (pardon me "orientals") are bad at computers now? I missed the memo on that
- DonHopkins 8y ago
  How about this, it sounds like harassment to me: https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discrimination.pdf https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discriminat... >Campbell met September 28, 2016 with Magic Leap CFO Henry and Head of Operations Tina Tuli for a conference call with the CFO and leadership team at R/GA, an award-winning international advertising agency that was Magic Leap’s advertising agency of record. During the call, Henry said of the product under development, “I’m sitting here between two beautiful ladies. They’re not going to want to put a big ugly device over their pretty faces. And I have an office with glass doors, I don’t want people to see me with these beautiful girls with ugly things on their faces.” Later, one of the male R/GA executives on the call asked Campbell if Henry frequently made sexist comments like he had made. A female executive at R/GA also was offended by Henry’s remarks.
- DonHopkins 8y ago

DonHopkins 8y ago

The whole point of the lawsuit was all about how Magic Leap's company culture and product plans and demos and self image all revolved around adolescent male egos and sexist fantasies, and excluded women. Tannen Cambell, who filed the lawsuit, was actually hired for the express purpose of solving Magic Leap's recognized "pink/blue problem", but was rebuffed and ignored. They knew they had a problem, and even gave it a name, but they refused to solve it. Read the lawsuit: https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discrimination.pdf https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/02/14/magic-leap-sex-discriminat... >Campbell, one of whose responsibilities was to help Magic Leap with the “pink/blue problem,” had to endure hostile environment sex discrimination while proposing ways, not only to make Magic Leap’s product more woman friendly, but also to make the workplace more diverse and inclusive. Campbell was terminated after (and because) she, like the child in “The Emperor’s New Clothes” who blurted out that the Emperor was naked, challenged Magic Leap’s CEO, Rony Abovitz, to acknowledge the depths of misogyny in Magic Leap’s culture and take steps to correct an gender imbalance that negatively affects the company’s core culture and renders it so dysfunctional it continues to delay the launch of a product that attracted billions of investment dollars. Campbell also raised concerns that what Magic Leap showed the public in marketing material was not what the product actually could do—admonitions ignored in favor of her male colleagues’ assertions that the images and videos presented on Magic Leap’s website and on YouTube were “aspirational,” and not Magic Leap’s version of “alternate facts.” Did all of that suddenly change after the lawsuit was settled? Because if it did suddenly tangibly change, then that might be evidence that settling a sex discrimination lawsuit by changing their behavior was a positive signal. But if they only forked over a big pile of hush money, signed non-disparagement agreements and gag orders, and went their separate ways, and Magic Leap didn't actually change their culture, then I don't think you could consider it positive sign or a constructive settlement for anyone other than the woman who was paid to keep her mouth shut.

pg_bot 8y ago
So I took the time to read through the entire complaint and I hope she settled. I wouldn't characterize this lawsuit as frivolous, but a lot of what is put forward is extremely flimsy. For example, it is perfectly fine to criticize someone who works at the same company in a slack channel if they're doing poor work. There are a lot of claims, but not many specifics to back up those claims. She paints Abovitz as a poor leader, being constantly mired in agendaless meetings and struck with a strong case of analysis paralysis. While bad leaders often do illegal things, it is not illegal to be a bad leader. Not every requested product change is ignored without cause. It's not shocking to have to ask for a promotion. Organizing speaking engagements with high profile female executives that command well over six figures per speaking engagement is unrealistic. Magic Leap is certainly not the first company to over hype the capabilities of its product. I do find it curious that while Ms Campbell was hired to solve this "pink/blue" problem, none of her proposed solutions involved talking to potential female consumers about the product. If your solution to "How are we going to market this product to women when we release in Q1 next year?" is to raise a new generation of female engineers, your company will die. Also, I would like to point out that recognition of a problem does not guarantee that there is a solution to it. I'm certain that the makers of needlepoint kits would love to sell more embroidery materials to men. I'm less certain that there is a way of doing so. I did like this excerpt from 25: "A chaotic discussion with people talking over each other followed. The group made no decisions and none of the proposed changes were made to the design." That accurately describes any large group product meeting I've ever attended.