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In the west the common way to suppress dissidents is more civil like legal extortion ) Aaron Schwartz in US). Rarely there's murder except few cases like German

In the west the common way to suppress dissidents is more civil like legal extortion ) Aaron Schwartz in US). Rarely there's murder except few cases like Germany's removal of Mölleman in 2000s. Developing world is still learning at their own pace like Saudi's butchering of WP journalist during consular services or China's..

acct1771 8y ago
Name is "Aaron Swartz", by the by.
coldtea 8y ago
Yeah, it's usually more civil. Make a few phone calls, put legal pressure on them, discredit them, etc. Unless of course the target is in the third world, then an unmanned plane attack will do, at worse it might also get 20-50 others unrelated to them, but third world lives are cheap. Though it also depends on the part of the west and the time. The 50s to 80s was a good time for muddy state work in the west too. In the 60s and 70s the Italians had certain pesky activists commit "suicide" by jumping off of police building and similar methods [1]. Delegating a murder or disappearance to the mafia (which in 80s trials was found complicit with the government) was also an option, as was using the far right organizations [2]. The Belgians had someone like Lumumba executed and dissolved in acid, something the French agencies were also known to be fond of and also had common criminals working for them when they wanted to git rid of a "state enemy" [3]. The Greek deep state of the 60s and 70s just used hired thugs, who acted "independently", like those that murdered peace activist Lambrakis in 1963 [4] (that was still under democracy, the Junta just continued the tradition). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Pinelli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Pinelli [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Fontana_bombing#State_security_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Fontana_bombing#State_s... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Mesrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Mesrine [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigoris_Lambrakis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigoris_Lambrakis
Zeratoss 8y ago
Möllemann seems like a clear cut suicide to me. He was finished anyway, why kill him? why do you believe he was murdered?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
jopsen 8y ago
The US also tends to elect it's dissidents from time to time.. In the eyes of many Trump is probably a dissident, haha :) (Obviously, Trump never opposed real oppression, and is not a dissident) I'm sure one could also call Bernie Sanders a dissident, as he opposed real oppression. And he was elected to the senate many times.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Obviously, Trump never opposed real oppression, and is not a dissident Well, depends on how you see it. Hillary was the typical hawk ready to continue the war business as usual like Obama. Trump pushed for a more isolationist policy, which after Bush and Obama continuous war making is a breath of fresh air (and made some progress with SK instead of mere aggressions). And for many people (not the 10% that benefits for such things and which most on HN would belong to) globalization itself causes a race to the bottom and oppression. In fact before the "left" (term used loosely) went full-on Democrat-lite, it used to protest globalization (remember Seattle, Genova, etc).
  - jopsen 8y ago
    No it doesn't depend on how you see things. You can disagree with Obama, even about facts, but you were not oppressed. Trump claimed Obama was a terrorist. Yet, he was not oppressed. For crying out loud Trump was invited the correspondence dinner when Obama was in office. He was rightly mocked, but he was not disappeared :) But let's get real there were people in America who faced real oppression in the 60'ties civil rights movements. Bernie was one of those, and many of them served as elected politicians later.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >No it doesn't depend on how you see things. True, my interpretation is objectively right, but I wanted to put it more mildly :-) Though, if you don't believe on God-given rights and wrongs, it still falls on "how you see things" (and your interests), which is the whole point of politics. >You can disagree with Obama, even about facts, but you were not oppressed. Trump claimed Obama was a terrorist. Yet, he was not oppressed. For crying out loud Trump was invited the correspondence dinner when Obama was in office. He was rightly mocked, but he was not disappeared :) Well, people don't disappear under Trump either, so there's that. I made some specific points under which Trumps politics could be seen as better (being against the constant after 9-11 wars and interventionism and the pro-corporate globalization). In any case, as a non-American, I mostly care about the foreign policy: stopping the hawkish attitude, and making a stand against "race to the bottom" globalization. I remember a time when the "left" were for those things too, instead of against them because Trump peddles them.

acct1771 8y ago

Name is "Aaron Swartz", by the by.

coldtea 8y ago

Yeah, it's usually more civil. Make a few phone calls, put legal pressure on them, discredit them, etc. Unless of course the target is in the third world, then an unmanned plane attack will do, at worse it might also get 20-50 others unrelated to them, but third world lives are cheap. Though it also depends on the part of the west and the time. The 50s to 80s was a good time for muddy state work in the west too. In the 60s and 70s the Italians had certain pesky activists commit "suicide" by jumping off of police building and similar methods [1]. Delegating a murder or disappearance to the mafia (which in 80s trials was found complicit with the government) was also an option, as was using the far right organizations [2]. The Belgians had someone like Lumumba executed and dissolved in acid, something the French agencies were also known to be fond of and also had common criminals working for them when they wanted to git rid of a "state enemy" [3]. The Greek deep state of the 60s and 70s just used hired thugs, who acted "independently", like those that murdered peace activist Lambrakis in 1963 [4] (that was still under democracy, the Junta just continued the tradition). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Pinelli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Pinelli [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Fontana_bombing#State_security_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Fontana_bombing#State_s... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Mesrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Mesrine [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigoris_Lambrakis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigoris_Lambrakis

Zeratoss 8y ago

Möllemann seems like a clear cut suicide to me. He was finished anyway, why kill him? why do you believe he was murdered?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

jopsen 8y ago

The US also tends to elect it's dissidents from time to time.. In the eyes of many Trump is probably a dissident, haha :) (Obviously, Trump never opposed real oppression, and is not a dissident) I'm sure one could also call Bernie Sanders a dissident, as he opposed real oppression. And he was elected to the senate many times.

coldtea 8y ago
>Obviously, Trump never opposed real oppression, and is not a dissident Well, depends on how you see it. Hillary was the typical hawk ready to continue the war business as usual like Obama. Trump pushed for a more isolationist policy, which after Bush and Obama continuous war making is a breath of fresh air (and made some progress with SK instead of mere aggressions). And for many people (not the 10% that benefits for such things and which most on HN would belong to) globalization itself causes a race to the bottom and oppression. In fact before the "left" (term used loosely) went full-on Democrat-lite, it used to protest globalization (remember Seattle, Genova, etc).
- jopsen 8y ago
  No it doesn't depend on how you see things. You can disagree with Obama, even about facts, but you were not oppressed. Trump claimed Obama was a terrorist. Yet, he was not oppressed. For crying out loud Trump was invited the correspondence dinner when Obama was in office. He was rightly mocked, but he was not disappeared :) But let's get real there were people in America who faced real oppression in the 60'ties civil rights movements. Bernie was one of those, and many of them served as elected politicians later.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >No it doesn't depend on how you see things. True, my interpretation is objectively right, but I wanted to put it more mildly :-) Though, if you don't believe on God-given rights and wrongs, it still falls on "how you see things" (and your interests), which is the whole point of politics. >You can disagree with Obama, even about facts, but you were not oppressed. Trump claimed Obama was a terrorist. Yet, he was not oppressed. For crying out loud Trump was invited the correspondence dinner when Obama was in office. He was rightly mocked, but he was not disappeared :) Well, people don't disappear under Trump either, so there's that. I made some specific points under which Trumps politics could be seen as better (being against the constant after 9-11 wars and interventionism and the pro-corporate globalization). In any case, as a non-American, I mostly care about the foreign policy: stopping the hawkish attitude, and making a stand against "race to the bottom" globalization. I remember a time when the "left" were for those things too, instead of against them because Trump peddles them.