4 ms·

My, what a broad brush you have. With of course no ‘time’ to back it up with facts.

ddeck 8y ago
Some facts: Hull loss rates by region of operator per million departures (Jet / Turboprop) 2012-2016: [0] - 2.21 / 7.38 Africa - 1.17 / 20.59 CIS - 0.74 / 3.42 Middle East / North Africa - 0.53 / 1.55 Latin America / Caribbean - 0.48 / 1.45 Asia Pacific - 0.22 / 0.98 North America - 0.14 / 0.73 Europe - 0.00 / 8.73 North Asia India falls below Myanmar, Nepal, Pakistan in air safety audit[1] >The audit — ICAO Universal Safety Oversight Audit Programme — seeks to identify if countries have effectively and consistently implemented the critical elements of a safety-oversight system. >India is one of the 15 countries that are below the minimum target rates. [0] https://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Pages/2018-02-22-01.aspx https://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Pages/2018-02-22-01.aspx [1] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/india-falls-below-myanmar-nepal-pakistan-in-air-safety-audit/articleshow/65945649.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation...
- sangnoir 8y ago
  I appreciate the hull-loss facts, but do they directly support "pilot incompetence"? I've read enough NTSB reports to know it's usually multiple congruent factors (aircraft maintenance, organisational culture, pilot work-load).
  - Xylakant 8y ago
    “extreme incompetence exists in the airline world” does not equal “pilot incompetence” but would rather include aircraft maintenance, organizational culture, ... So the facts support the statement perfectly well.
- throw2016 8y ago
  This is highly misleading and deceptive. You are mixing up the headline and data from link 2 which is mainly focused on which government agency licenses ATCs as the reason for lower scores, to the IATA hull loss data from link 1 which does not single out any country or region for below 'minimum safety target rates'. This is the IATA data for hull loss rates for 2017 per million departures: Asia Pacific - 0.18 CIS - 0.92 Europe - 0.13 Latin America and the Caribbean - 0.41 Middle East and North Africa - 0.00 North America - 0.00 The second link does not mention or link to anything about hull loss, safety issues, aircraft, training but talks about lower ranking due to ATC licensing by government agencies.
  - azernik 8y ago
    For uncommon events like aircraft hull losses, I very much prefer the larger sample size of a few years, even if it does put the data slightly out of date. Though note - the IATA there notes that 2017 indicates a recent (last-few-years) trend of increased safety in sub-Saharan Africa. GP poster was quite clear that the two pieces of data were from different sources, and the five-year data shows clear trends (though with
  - ddeck 8y ago
    These are two independent data points. The first is the bulk loss stats. The second is an article discussing India's poor audit results in the ICAO safety audit, per the quote above the link and sourced to it. I'm not sure how you can claim that the second link doesn't "link to anything about hull loss, safety issues, aircraft, training". It is the result of an independent safety audit by the ICAO, which encompasses licensing, operations, airworthiness, and a number of other categories[0]. [0] https://www.icao.int/safety/pages/usoap-results.aspx https://www.icao.int/safety/pages/usoap-results.aspx
raverbashing 8y ago
There are different failure modes Asiana missing a landing in SFO on a perfectly clear day is one example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 Cultures where hierarchy prevails over CRM and recent graduates can recall page 243 of the manual but can't do a visual landing in a perfect day are also dangerous. About aviation in India, two recent incidents: Jet Airways 9W-697 where crew apparently "forgot" to pressurize the plane. http://avherald.com/h?article=4bded8e6&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4bded8e6&opt=0 Air India AI-676 had "inexplicable loss of performance". Crew "forgot" to retract the landing gear: http://avherald.com/h?article=4ac18ec7&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4ac18ec7&opt=0
unionemployee 8y ago
Or I was going to sleep and didn’t want to stay up to write a report on my phone. Use your data but consider my anecdotal comment above. The aviation world is more opaque than one might think, and the governing bodies in certain areas are extremely protective of what is a great source of pride for their countries. I’ve worked with many people from these regions, talked with many people who work with people from these regions, and know many people who have worked in these regions, in addition to the exposure that comes from simply being in this industry. The system is designed to protect you and does its job, even when certain operators aren’t up to par, including the pilots.

Some facts: Hull loss rates by region of operator per million departures (Jet / Turboprop) 2012-2016: [0] - 2.21 / 7.38 Africa - 1.17 / 20.59 CIS - 0.74 / 3.42 Middle East / North Africa - 0.53 / 1.55 Latin America / Caribbean - 0.48 / 1.45 Asia Pacific - 0.22 / 0.98 North America - 0.14 / 0.73 Europe - 0.00 / 8.73 North Asia India falls below Myanmar, Nepal, Pakistan in air safety audit[1] >The audit — ICAO Universal Safety Oversight Audit Programme — seeks to identify if countries have effectively and consistently implemented the critical elements of a safety-oversight system. >India is one of the 15 countries that are below the minimum target rates. [0] https://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Pages/2018-02-22-01.aspx https://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Pages/2018-02-22-01.aspx [1] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/india-falls-below-myanmar-nepal-pakistan-in-air-safety-audit/articleshow/65945649.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation...

sangnoir 8y ago
I appreciate the hull-loss facts, but do they directly support "pilot incompetence"? I've read enough NTSB reports to know it's usually multiple congruent factors (aircraft maintenance, organisational culture, pilot work-load).
- Xylakant 8y ago
  “extreme incompetence exists in the airline world” does not equal “pilot incompetence” but would rather include aircraft maintenance, organizational culture, ... So the facts support the statement perfectly well.
throw2016 8y ago
This is highly misleading and deceptive. You are mixing up the headline and data from link 2 which is mainly focused on which government agency licenses ATCs as the reason for lower scores, to the IATA hull loss data from link 1 which does not single out any country or region for below 'minimum safety target rates'. This is the IATA data for hull loss rates for 2017 per million departures: Asia Pacific - 0.18 CIS - 0.92 Europe - 0.13 Latin America and the Caribbean - 0.41 Middle East and North Africa - 0.00 North America - 0.00 The second link does not mention or link to anything about hull loss, safety issues, aircraft, training but talks about lower ranking due to ATC licensing by government agencies.
- azernik 8y ago
  For uncommon events like aircraft hull losses, I very much prefer the larger sample size of a few years, even if it does put the data slightly out of date. Though note - the IATA there notes that 2017 indicates a recent (last-few-years) trend of increased safety in sub-Saharan Africa. GP poster was quite clear that the two pieces of data were from different sources, and the five-year data shows clear trends (though with
- ddeck 8y ago
  These are two independent data points. The first is the bulk loss stats. The second is an article discussing India's poor audit results in the ICAO safety audit, per the quote above the link and sourced to it. I'm not sure how you can claim that the second link doesn't "link to anything about hull loss, safety issues, aircraft, training". It is the result of an independent safety audit by the ICAO, which encompasses licensing, operations, airworthiness, and a number of other categories[0]. [0] https://www.icao.int/safety/pages/usoap-results.aspx https://www.icao.int/safety/pages/usoap-results.aspx

raverbashing 8y ago

There are different failure modes Asiana missing a landing in SFO on a perfectly clear day is one example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 Cultures where hierarchy prevails over CRM and recent graduates can recall page 243 of the manual but can't do a visual landing in a perfect day are also dangerous. About aviation in India, two recent incidents: Jet Airways 9W-697 where crew apparently "forgot" to pressurize the plane. http://avherald.com/h?article=4bded8e6&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4bded8e6&opt=0 Air India AI-676 had "inexplicable loss of performance". Crew "forgot" to retract the landing gear: http://avherald.com/h?article=4ac18ec7&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4ac18ec7&opt=0

unionemployee 8y ago

Or I was going to sleep and didn’t want to stay up to write a report on my phone. Use your data but consider my anecdotal comment above. The aviation world is more opaque than one might think, and the governing bodies in certain areas are extremely protective of what is a great source of pride for their countries. I’ve worked with many people from these regions, talked with many people who work with people from these regions, and know many people who have worked in these regions, in addition to the exposure that comes from simply being in this industry. The system is designed to protect you and does its job, even when certain operators aren’t up to par, including the pilots.