4 ms·

The fundamental problem with Rand's ideology is her cartoonish categorization of everyone that isn't Galt-esque or an enthusiastic, hypercompetent support perso

The fundamental problem with Rand's ideology is her cartoonish categorization of everyone that isn't Galt-esque or an enthusiastic, hypercompetent support person as evil looters/parasites. Iirc, Galt is basically trying to collapse society for everyone but the former. When you realize that you can't just write off people because they didn't turn out to be brilliant entrepreneurs or perky worker bees, and that the workings of government and justice are more complicated than Rand would allow, Atlas Shrugged does become pretty repugnant. Granted, she was reacting to her experiences with communism, so I don't totally blame her for going all the way to the other extreme. But insofar as someone wants to invent great things and do well from them, I don't take issue with that.

skookumchuck 8y ago
It's hard to get more cartoonish than Star Trek's Ferengi, a left-wing caricature of capitalists, going so far as having pointed teeth.
- cultus 8y ago
  Star Trek is a tv show. Unlike Objectivism, it is not trying to be a philosophy.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    Are you sure about that? Most ST episodes have a pretty heavy-handed moral lesson on progressive philosophy. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/06/new-star-trek-series-will-abandon-gene-roddenberrys-cardinal-rule/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/06/new-star-trek-series-...
    - cultus 8y ago
      No one bases their lives around Star Trek moral messages besides a few nerds. Also, you may want to read what I wrote again. I said "Star Trek is not pretending to be a moral philosophy." Ayn Rand claims that Objectivism is the basis for ethics, epistemology, metaphysics, etc. How on Earth does that compare to the Ferengi being greedy as a parable of capitalism?
      - skookumchuck 8y ago
        > "Star Trek is not pretending to be a moral philosophy." I gave a link showing it was Roddenberry's directive. Also, what do you think of the Prime Directive? (Which, of course, is routinely violated if the aliens don't conform to progressive ideals.) > besides a few nerds I've read progressive newspaper columnists citing Star Trek as a model to emulate.
- dieterrams 8y ago
  I was saying her categorizations are cartoonish, as in overly simplistic morally and sociologically.
arkis22 8y ago
I disagree. In the book society was already collapsing. Plenty of regular people in the novel realized something was wrong and removed themselves from the looters' economy to roam the country. Galt simply refused to be the one to prop up the looters failing economy. Interesting that you see Galt as the one collapsing society. Rand's point was that the looters collapsed society and that they were too ignorant to understand why or how.
- holtalanm 8y ago
  This. Galt and the others that removed themselves from the collapsing society were not the ones that were collapsing society, nor was the collapse their end-goal. In the story, the looters were causing the collapse, and were taking everything not nailed down in the process. Galt and the others simply decided to leave them to it.
- amptorn 8y ago
  So in the metaphor of the story's title, Atlas, whose shrugging caused the collapse of society, is the looters? Not the successful entrepeneurial giants, Galt et al., who in their collective departure from the world leave it, figuratively speaking, unsupported?
  - arkis22 8y ago
    No, Atlas is people like Galt. The point is that the looters pushed the weight of the world on to them, and that's the failure of their society.
    - amptorn 8y ago
      This is a terribly muddled metaphor.
glalonde 8y ago
Everyone was cartoonish, even the good guys. It was like a small army of glimmering MD PhD's with perfect physiques vs. the lazy bums. It's a work of fantasy, why does anyone point to it and say "This is what I base my beliefs on."? That would be like using LotR as your moral compass. Except with worse plot holes like gross misrepresentations of how small mountain village economies could possibly function.
- stale2002 8y ago
  Rands work was a direct criticism of communism. Given that this is the topic that we are discussing, I do not find her ideas to be fantasy at all. Stalin and Mao killed many millions of people, both intentionally, and through mere neglect. Probably more than the Nazis. So given that this is the topic, her criticism of a collapsing society doesn't seem that ridiculous.
EdSharkey 8y ago
Ayn Rand's characters and storytelling is crappy. The correct response when someone asks, "Who is John Galt?" is always "WHO THE #$%^&* CARES?!" That notwithstanding, Rand understood that one can moralize without limitation in our culture as long as one does it in narrative form, and she used her platform to the extreme. The message and moral I took from her stories was essentially pro-human, where the archetypal good is that independent man who creates according to their own taste, without any overlords, and without the approval of others. The greater any effort is collectivized, the greater the sin. Rand's is a hyper-optimistic view of the individual - it feels like an atheist's attempt to replace God with Man and then posit him as the highest virtue. And in the introduction to The Fountainhead, I believe Rand even said her philosophy was a form of worship of Man. It's foolish because life is much too brutal for man to ever truly ascend that way. In any case, her brand of optimism is so rare, and that sells. It's so interesting to me that your critique went to group politics and identity, though. Rand was consistently negative about groups and big government cronyism. She treated her archetypes as equally noble whether they were breaking rocks in a quarry or engineering some new miracle metal. Do you view the world through such a group identity lens that you couldn't see that in her writing? It's absolutely plain. The evil archetypes in the Randian universe are any nullifying spirit, destroyer, or parasite. Remember, these are archetypes, no-one in the real world is so black-and-white. It's not a bad characterization of evil, and has parallels in religion and literature.
- chimeracoder 8y ago
  > In any case, her brand of optimism is so rare, and that sells. You're saying Ayn Rand is popular because of the optimism in her works?
  - EdSharkey 8y ago
    Yes. It's fanciful about the heights to which the human spirit can reach. She's the ultimate optimist, in my opinion. Plenty of hero stories are set in ultra-negative backgrounds, just to set the contrast. I hope to God Rand's writing isn't gobbled up for its sex scenes, yikers!
- 8y ago

skookumchuck 8y ago

It's hard to get more cartoonish than Star Trek's Ferengi, a left-wing caricature of capitalists, going so far as having pointed teeth.

cultus 8y ago
Star Trek is a tv show. Unlike Objectivism, it is not trying to be a philosophy.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  Are you sure about that? Most ST episodes have a pretty heavy-handed moral lesson on progressive philosophy. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/06/new-star-trek-series-will-abandon-gene-roddenberrys-cardinal-rule/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/06/new-star-trek-series-...
  - cultus 8y ago
    No one bases their lives around Star Trek moral messages besides a few nerds. Also, you may want to read what I wrote again. I said "Star Trek is not pretending to be a moral philosophy." Ayn Rand claims that Objectivism is the basis for ethics, epistemology, metaphysics, etc. How on Earth does that compare to the Ferengi being greedy as a parable of capitalism?
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      > "Star Trek is not pretending to be a moral philosophy." I gave a link showing it was Roddenberry's directive. Also, what do you think of the Prime Directive? (Which, of course, is routinely violated if the aliens don't conform to progressive ideals.) > besides a few nerds I've read progressive newspaper columnists citing Star Trek as a model to emulate.
dieterrams 8y ago
I was saying her categorizations are cartoonish, as in overly simplistic morally and sociologically.

arkis22 8y ago

I disagree. In the book society was already collapsing. Plenty of regular people in the novel realized something was wrong and removed themselves from the looters' economy to roam the country. Galt simply refused to be the one to prop up the looters failing economy. Interesting that you see Galt as the one collapsing society. Rand's point was that the looters collapsed society and that they were too ignorant to understand why or how.

holtalanm 8y ago
This. Galt and the others that removed themselves from the collapsing society were not the ones that were collapsing society, nor was the collapse their end-goal. In the story, the looters were causing the collapse, and were taking everything not nailed down in the process. Galt and the others simply decided to leave them to it.
amptorn 8y ago
So in the metaphor of the story's title, Atlas, whose shrugging caused the collapse of society, is the looters? Not the successful entrepeneurial giants, Galt et al., who in their collective departure from the world leave it, figuratively speaking, unsupported?
- arkis22 8y ago
  No, Atlas is people like Galt. The point is that the looters pushed the weight of the world on to them, and that's the failure of their society.
  - amptorn 8y ago
    This is a terribly muddled metaphor.

glalonde 8y ago

Everyone was cartoonish, even the good guys. It was like a small army of glimmering MD PhD's with perfect physiques vs. the lazy bums. It's a work of fantasy, why does anyone point to it and say "This is what I base my beliefs on."? That would be like using LotR as your moral compass. Except with worse plot holes like gross misrepresentations of how small mountain village economies could possibly function.

stale2002 8y ago
Rands work was a direct criticism of communism. Given that this is the topic that we are discussing, I do not find her ideas to be fantasy at all. Stalin and Mao killed many millions of people, both intentionally, and through mere neglect. Probably more than the Nazis. So given that this is the topic, her criticism of a collapsing society doesn't seem that ridiculous.

EdSharkey 8y ago

Ayn Rand's characters and storytelling is crappy. The correct response when someone asks, "Who is John Galt?" is always "WHO THE #$%^&* CARES?!" That notwithstanding, Rand understood that one can moralize without limitation in our culture as long as one does it in narrative form, and she used her platform to the extreme. The message and moral I took from her stories was essentially pro-human, where the archetypal good is that independent man who creates according to their own taste, without any overlords, and without the approval of others. The greater any effort is collectivized, the greater the sin. Rand's is a hyper-optimistic view of the individual - it feels like an atheist's attempt to replace God with Man and then posit him as the highest virtue. And in the introduction to The Fountainhead, I believe Rand even said her philosophy was a form of worship of Man. It's foolish because life is much too brutal for man to ever truly ascend that way. In any case, her brand of optimism is so rare, and that sells. It's so interesting to me that your critique went to group politics and identity, though. Rand was consistently negative about groups and big government cronyism. She treated her archetypes as equally noble whether they were breaking rocks in a quarry or engineering some new miracle metal. Do you view the world through such a group identity lens that you couldn't see that in her writing? It's absolutely plain. The evil archetypes in the Randian universe are any nullifying spirit, destroyer, or parasite. Remember, these are archetypes, no-one in the real world is so black-and-white. It's not a bad characterization of evil, and has parallels in religion and literature.

chimeracoder 8y ago
> In any case, her brand of optimism is so rare, and that sells. You're saying Ayn Rand is popular because of the optimism in her works?
- EdSharkey 8y ago
  Yes. It's fanciful about the heights to which the human spirit can reach. She's the ultimate optimist, in my opinion. Plenty of hero stories are set in ultra-negative backgrounds, just to set the contrast. I hope to God Rand's writing isn't gobbled up for its sex scenes, yikers!
8y ago