4 ms·

If I count the number of times recently I've read and heard people say "Well switch to Instagram or WhatsApp" in reaction to hearing about Facebook's privacy tr

by harryf 8y ago

If I count the number of times recently I've read and heard people say "Well switch to Instagram or WhatsApp" in reaction to hearing about Facebook's privacy track record, then the answer to your question is No - the public is largely clueless. (In case you weren't aware, Facebook owns Instagram and WhatsApp)

maemilius 8y ago
I feel like the group of people that know Facebook owns Instagram and WhatsApp are not mutually inclusive of the group that knows that Facebook will collect literally everything it possibly can about you. My impression of the issue is that most people simply don't care.
- kodablah 8y ago
  > My impression of the issue is that most people simply don't care. This is my impression as well, and I find it a bit of elitist arrogance to tell them they should. Different people value their data at different levels and we shouldn't be so quick to make it harder for them to give it away if they choose. A simple question one should ask while picking up their pitchfork is whether their perceived righteousness is based on perceived stupidity by the masses (and whether the perception is based on some anecdotal evidence). And if you really believe stupidity is that rampant, you can set your law-making pitchfork down and advocate education.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    Nobody is saying that they shouldn't be able to, rather that they should be informed as to what they're doing so they can actually make that decision. Without knowing what is happening, they cannot make an informed decision.
    - kodablah 8y ago
      >> we shouldn't be so quick to make it harder > that they should be informed as to what they're doing so they can actually make that decision These two items are at odds with one another in an opt-in situation.
    - bepotts 8y ago
      You aren't aware of every little detail about the actions that companies perform that affects the products you use. You don't know everything about water treatment, energy, housing construction, civil engineering, etc. And you don't know about those things because you trust people who do know to do the right thing. That's how society works. That's how billions of Facebook and Google users are. Facebook and Google should get in major trouble when they mistreat their data (like the Cambridge Analytica scandal with Facebook), but you disliking the data they collect and/or their business model does not mean that everyone else will. I know full well the type of data Google and Facebook collect about me and I just don't care. There's plenty of people in the tech industry that don't care either.
      - s73v3r_ 8y ago
        "but you disliking the data they collect and/or their business model does not mean that everyone else will." I never said that, in fact I explicitly said the opposite. "I know full well the type of data Google and Facebook collect about me and I just don't care." Yes, and you were able to make an informed decision because you do know. Not everyone knows. That's the entire point I was making.
  - dfxm12 8y ago
    I find it a bit of elitist arrogance to tell them they should [care about privacy]. Different people value their data at different levels and we shouldn't be so quick to make it harder for them to give it away if they choose. With regards to "shadow profiles", someone else's actions do diminish my privacy. I don't find it elitist or arrogant at all to protect my privacy in this way. And, if someone came to me and said "stop doing this because it is negatively affecting me", I probably wouldn't think twice before stopping.
    - kodablah 8y ago
      "stop putting up incessant consent forms (i.e. stop requiring opt-in to tracking) because it is negatively affecting me and my normal web usage" "stop increasing compliance burdens on the internet because it is negatively affecting me and my business"
  - bepotts 8y ago
    It reminds me of all the people who like Trump or dislike the EU, and all the people who believe that those people must not understand what's going on in the world; and that if only they learned the "truth", they wouldn't like Trump or realize that the EU is really good for us. Ya know, sometimes people actually do understand and they just don't agree with you. I'm not a Trump supporter, but I believe people who say they like Trump for reasons that aren't "politie". These anti-Google and anti-Facebook people should learn to disagree better.
  - zjaffee 8y ago
    The question is if using the internet is more valuable than having your data being tracked by third parties. You can hardly find a single website on the internet where there is absolutely zero tracking happening. You certainly can't use a smartphone without being tracked, hell you can't even go into most stores without being tracked to some degree (it might be different if you pay in cash).
    - duckMuppet 8y ago
      You most certainly can use the web and a smartphone without being tracked. It's not difficult at all actually.. it becomes increasingly more difficult when you want to use these services and apps which you are the product by design, and the truth is this is week within the rights of those companies that are giving you their services for free.. This is all virtue signaling to the max as well as endorsing a more censored, controlled internet by these media outlets, tech, or govt.. After all, mums the word on an actual problem, the data breaches of credit reporting agencies, e.g. Equifax. These companies have essentially a govt endorsed monopoly on all of our data. And no one goes to jail when my actual important info gets hacked even after being warned, (DL/SSN, last 10 addresses, loan amounts and who I owe, etc.). On top of this, these companies can sell my info to other 3rd party vendors, and I literally have no recourse.. All this Facebook nonsense is hogwash. If your conspiratorial, there is a strong case to be made that this is about censorship, deference to the experts who know the web better than the masses who are "incapable" of using any discernment regarding bots or fakenews. These are the same people who brought us SESTA, FOSTA, PIPA et. al., same ones who told us we'd go back to dial up without net neutrality.. I personally think it's just virtue signaling to the max..
- GeekyBear 8y ago
  >My impression of the issue is that most people simply don't care. My impression is that people have absolutely no idea that Google has become so invasive as to purchase copies of most people's credit/debit card purchase histories, and would be horrified to learn that they have taken surveillance capitalism to such an extreme. >Google has been able to track your location using Google Maps for a long time. Since 2014, it has used that information to provide advertisers with information on how often people visit their stores. But store visits aren’t purchases, so, as Google said in a blog post on its new service for marketers, it has partnered with “third parties” that give them access to 70 percent of all credit and debit card purchases. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-your-credit-card-purchases-and-connects-them-to-its-online-profile-of-you/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-...
sandov 8y ago
If they don't care enough to do a quick search and learn about it, then it doesn't matter that much.
- ggggtez 8y ago
  This sort of thinking is backwards. A lot of people in tech fall back on this idea that lay-people should just do research and educate themselves about computer security and privacy. But even security experts disagree about the right choices to make, so what hope does a person with no background in computers have? If your solution is "don't use the most popular service in the world", your solution is simply not realistic for most people.

by harryf 8y ago

maemilius 8y ago

I feel like the group of people that know Facebook owns Instagram and WhatsApp are not mutually inclusive of the group that knows that Facebook will collect literally everything it possibly can about you. My impression of the issue is that most people simply don't care.

kodablah 8y ago
> My impression of the issue is that most people simply don't care. This is my impression as well, and I find it a bit of elitist arrogance to tell them they should. Different people value their data at different levels and we shouldn't be so quick to make it harder for them to give it away if they choose. A simple question one should ask while picking up their pitchfork is whether their perceived righteousness is based on perceived stupidity by the masses (and whether the perception is based on some anecdotal evidence). And if you really believe stupidity is that rampant, you can set your law-making pitchfork down and advocate education.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  Nobody is saying that they shouldn't be able to, rather that they should be informed as to what they're doing so they can actually make that decision. Without knowing what is happening, they cannot make an informed decision.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    >> we shouldn't be so quick to make it harder > that they should be informed as to what they're doing so they can actually make that decision These two items are at odds with one another in an opt-in situation.
  - bepotts 8y ago
    You aren't aware of every little detail about the actions that companies perform that affects the products you use. You don't know everything about water treatment, energy, housing construction, civil engineering, etc. And you don't know about those things because you trust people who do know to do the right thing. That's how society works. That's how billions of Facebook and Google users are. Facebook and Google should get in major trouble when they mistreat their data (like the Cambridge Analytica scandal with Facebook), but you disliking the data they collect and/or their business model does not mean that everyone else will. I know full well the type of data Google and Facebook collect about me and I just don't care. There's plenty of people in the tech industry that don't care either.
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      "but you disliking the data they collect and/or their business model does not mean that everyone else will." I never said that, in fact I explicitly said the opposite. "I know full well the type of data Google and Facebook collect about me and I just don't care." Yes, and you were able to make an informed decision because you do know. Not everyone knows. That's the entire point I was making.
- dfxm12 8y ago
  I find it a bit of elitist arrogance to tell them they should [care about privacy]. Different people value their data at different levels and we shouldn't be so quick to make it harder for them to give it away if they choose. With regards to "shadow profiles", someone else's actions do diminish my privacy. I don't find it elitist or arrogant at all to protect my privacy in this way. And, if someone came to me and said "stop doing this because it is negatively affecting me", I probably wouldn't think twice before stopping.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    "stop putting up incessant consent forms (i.e. stop requiring opt-in to tracking) because it is negatively affecting me and my normal web usage" "stop increasing compliance burdens on the internet because it is negatively affecting me and my business"
- bepotts 8y ago
  It reminds me of all the people who like Trump or dislike the EU, and all the people who believe that those people must not understand what's going on in the world; and that if only they learned the "truth", they wouldn't like Trump or realize that the EU is really good for us. Ya know, sometimes people actually do understand and they just don't agree with you. I'm not a Trump supporter, but I believe people who say they like Trump for reasons that aren't "politie". These anti-Google and anti-Facebook people should learn to disagree better.
- zjaffee 8y ago
  The question is if using the internet is more valuable than having your data being tracked by third parties. You can hardly find a single website on the internet where there is absolutely zero tracking happening. You certainly can't use a smartphone without being tracked, hell you can't even go into most stores without being tracked to some degree (it might be different if you pay in cash).
  - duckMuppet 8y ago
    You most certainly can use the web and a smartphone without being tracked. It's not difficult at all actually.. it becomes increasingly more difficult when you want to use these services and apps which you are the product by design, and the truth is this is week within the rights of those companies that are giving you their services for free.. This is all virtue signaling to the max as well as endorsing a more censored, controlled internet by these media outlets, tech, or govt.. After all, mums the word on an actual problem, the data breaches of credit reporting agencies, e.g. Equifax. These companies have essentially a govt endorsed monopoly on all of our data. And no one goes to jail when my actual important info gets hacked even after being warned, (DL/SSN, last 10 addresses, loan amounts and who I owe, etc.). On top of this, these companies can sell my info to other 3rd party vendors, and I literally have no recourse.. All this Facebook nonsense is hogwash. If your conspiratorial, there is a strong case to be made that this is about censorship, deference to the experts who know the web better than the masses who are "incapable" of using any discernment regarding bots or fakenews. These are the same people who brought us SESTA, FOSTA, PIPA et. al., same ones who told us we'd go back to dial up without net neutrality.. I personally think it's just virtue signaling to the max..
GeekyBear 8y ago
>My impression of the issue is that most people simply don't care. My impression is that people have absolutely no idea that Google has become so invasive as to purchase copies of most people's credit/debit card purchase histories, and would be horrified to learn that they have taken surveillance capitalism to such an extreme. >Google has been able to track your location using Google Maps for a long time. Since 2014, it has used that information to provide advertisers with information on how often people visit their stores. But store visits aren’t purchases, so, as Google said in a blog post on its new service for marketers, it has partnered with “third parties” that give them access to 70 percent of all credit and debit card purchases. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-your-credit-card-purchases-and-connects-them-to-its-online-profile-of-you/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-...

sandov 8y ago

If they don't care enough to do a quick search and learn about it, then it doesn't matter that much.

ggggtez 8y ago
This sort of thinking is backwards. A lot of people in tech fall back on this idea that lay-people should just do research and educate themselves about computer security and privacy. But even security experts disagree about the right choices to make, so what hope does a person with no background in computers have? If your solution is "don't use the most popular service in the world", your solution is simply not realistic for most people.