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Update aside, the letter also notes the practice of disallowing third party cartridges in general is nefarious. I wish that were the case, but I liken it to the

Update aside, the letter also notes the practice of disallowing third party cartridges in general is nefarious. I wish that were the case, but I liken it to the printer equivalent of HDCP. Every day I see advertisements for the new, hip, consumer-friendly tech-gen versions of mattresses, toothbrushes, contact lenses, etc. Where is the company making consumer-friendly inkjet printers? Surely it can't be much more difficult than the 3D printers that were made in proverbial basements.

sp332 8y ago
Well... https://epson.com/ecotank-super-tank-printers https://epson.com/ecotank-super-tank-printers Epson sells printers that are explicitly marketed as "easy to refill".
- kodablah 8y ago
  Looking to avoid the existing printer hegemony, regardless of what products they sell.
snuxoll 8y ago
> Where is the company making consumer-friendly inkjet printers? Brother, enough said. No bullshit preventing you from using refilled cartridges if you want, their hardware doesn't randomly die as much as competing brands, etc. Heck, even if you go with OEM cartridges they aren't too bad either.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  100%. I have Brother laser printers that are over a decade old that still hum along without any troubles.
- kodablah 8y ago
  I agree that Brother is probably the best of the bunch. My specific question didn't ask it the way I led up to it, but I was wondering if there was a potential disruptor of the old guard. But as another commenter mentioned, the space is likely not lucrative and has already raced as far to the bottom as it will (whether consumers will pay a bit more to encourage an upstart is unlikely).
ocdtrekkie 8y ago
There's no money in printers. They haven't improved technologically in any meaningful way since the inception of Wi-Fi, and when buying a new printer, the ink that comes in the box is worth more than the printer itself. No matter how expensive of a printer you buy, it's going to break in just over 13 months anyways, $300 printers aren't more reliable than $30 printers. My current recommendation is the Canon MG2500 series: They can scan, copy, and print, you can often get them for about $20-25, and they come with ink. And if they stop working, you can just toss them and get new ones. It may or may not be more economical to just buy a new printer every time you run out of ink.
- jki275 8y ago
  My Epson AIO is going on about five years now, use it all the time, and I don't expect it to break any time soon.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    The stack of Epson AIOs I have at home says otherwise. I actually find the Epson's the worst, because if you don't print with them regularly (every couple weeks) they are permanently ruined. Something something microtubules you can't clean in a print head you can't replace.
    - jki275 8y ago
      I haven't had that issue with mine. It's been shipped across the planet a couple of times and works just as well as the day I bought it. I think that might have been an issue ten+ years ago.
- dm319 8y ago
  I think there's room to improve - the latest Fuji printers have incredible colour gamut.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    Very few people need high quality photo printers. Usually they have a document that they need on paper. For most users, you are better off not having an expensive photo printer and paying Walgreen's to run off a good print of a photo when you need it.
rayiner 8y ago
The EFF is wrong on that front. It's not like Epson is lying to you about needing to use Epson cartridges, is preventing other printer makers from making printers with higher up-front costs and unrestricted cartridges, or even is rolling in profits from their cheap, restricted printers (their profit margin is 5-6%). It's just a different business model: selling limited hardware for very cheap, instead of selling more expensive, unrestricted hardware. It's one that favors low-end consumers, who don't print very much, by shifting costs to high-end consumers who print a lot. The EFF's position here is the kind of misguided idealistic thinking that has destroyed housing affordability by shutting down the less-than-ideal housing and boarding options that used to be available to day laborers, etc. There is no free lunch--if you make it illegal to sell cheap, restricted printers, manufacturers won't just sell unrestricted printers for the same price. They'll sell better printers for more money, and price out the bottom of the market. Printers are a low-margin, highly competitive business, which means that you get what you pay for. If you want a reliable printer with low cartridge costs, get a business-grade laser printer.
- kodablah 8y ago
  While I agree this isn't the law's place in general, this hovers very close to the right-to-repair argument. Do you have a right to repair a printer? Can the company make physical attempts impossible or how far is a company allowed to go? Then apply that to reverse engineering and manufacture of replacement parts. Do you have a right to replace parts in a printer? Or, does a company have the right to go to any lengths to prevent it? Or is there a middle ground?
  - rolandog 8y ago
    Agreed. An analogous way to put how the printer companies are doing business would be if car manufactures setup gas stations and only allowed you to use their brand of gasoline.
    - rayiner 8y ago
      If, like printer companies, they sold the cars for a fraction of the up-front price, that might be a very good deal for consumers who don't drive very much.
derekp7 8y ago
Personally my answer was to get a decent color laser printer. The printing is basically magazine quality or better, and even though the toner cartridges are expensive they last for years it seems like (at least for home use).

sp332 8y ago

Well... https://epson.com/ecotank-super-tank-printers https://epson.com/ecotank-super-tank-printers Epson sells printers that are explicitly marketed as "easy to refill".

kodablah 8y ago
Looking to avoid the existing printer hegemony, regardless of what products they sell.

snuxoll 8y ago

> Where is the company making consumer-friendly inkjet printers? Brother, enough said. No bullshit preventing you from using refilled cartridges if you want, their hardware doesn't randomly die as much as competing brands, etc. Heck, even if you go with OEM cartridges they aren't too bad either.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
100%. I have Brother laser printers that are over a decade old that still hum along without any troubles.
kodablah 8y ago
I agree that Brother is probably the best of the bunch. My specific question didn't ask it the way I led up to it, but I was wondering if there was a potential disruptor of the old guard. But as another commenter mentioned, the space is likely not lucrative and has already raced as far to the bottom as it will (whether consumers will pay a bit more to encourage an upstart is unlikely).

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

There's no money in printers. They haven't improved technologically in any meaningful way since the inception of Wi-Fi, and when buying a new printer, the ink that comes in the box is worth more than the printer itself. No matter how expensive of a printer you buy, it's going to break in just over 13 months anyways, $300 printers aren't more reliable than $30 printers. My current recommendation is the Canon MG2500 series: They can scan, copy, and print, you can often get them for about $20-25, and they come with ink. And if they stop working, you can just toss them and get new ones. It may or may not be more economical to just buy a new printer every time you run out of ink.

jki275 8y ago
My Epson AIO is going on about five years now, use it all the time, and I don't expect it to break any time soon.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  The stack of Epson AIOs I have at home says otherwise. I actually find the Epson's the worst, because if you don't print with them regularly (every couple weeks) they are permanently ruined. Something something microtubules you can't clean in a print head you can't replace.
  - jki275 8y ago
    I haven't had that issue with mine. It's been shipped across the planet a couple of times and works just as well as the day I bought it. I think that might have been an issue ten+ years ago.
dm319 8y ago
I think there's room to improve - the latest Fuji printers have incredible colour gamut.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  Very few people need high quality photo printers. Usually they have a document that they need on paper. For most users, you are better off not having an expensive photo printer and paying Walgreen's to run off a good print of a photo when you need it.

rayiner 8y ago

The EFF is wrong on that front. It's not like Epson is lying to you about needing to use Epson cartridges, is preventing other printer makers from making printers with higher up-front costs and unrestricted cartridges, or even is rolling in profits from their cheap, restricted printers (their profit margin is 5-6%). It's just a different business model: selling limited hardware for very cheap, instead of selling more expensive, unrestricted hardware. It's one that favors low-end consumers, who don't print very much, by shifting costs to high-end consumers who print a lot. The EFF's position here is the kind of misguided idealistic thinking that has destroyed housing affordability by shutting down the less-than-ideal housing and boarding options that used to be available to day laborers, etc. There is no free lunch--if you make it illegal to sell cheap, restricted printers, manufacturers won't just sell unrestricted printers for the same price. They'll sell better printers for more money, and price out the bottom of the market. Printers are a low-margin, highly competitive business, which means that you get what you pay for. If you want a reliable printer with low cartridge costs, get a business-grade laser printer.

kodablah 8y ago
While I agree this isn't the law's place in general, this hovers very close to the right-to-repair argument. Do you have a right to repair a printer? Can the company make physical attempts impossible or how far is a company allowed to go? Then apply that to reverse engineering and manufacture of replacement parts. Do you have a right to replace parts in a printer? Or, does a company have the right to go to any lengths to prevent it? Or is there a middle ground?
- rolandog 8y ago
  Agreed. An analogous way to put how the printer companies are doing business would be if car manufactures setup gas stations and only allowed you to use their brand of gasoline.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    If, like printer companies, they sold the cars for a fraction of the up-front price, that might be a very good deal for consumers who don't drive very much.

derekp7 8y ago

Personally my answer was to get a decent color laser printer. The printing is basically magazine quality or better, and even though the toner cartridges are expensive they last for years it seems like (at least for home use).