6 ms·

And replaced with what?

aasasd 8y ago
With Latex published to HTML. I'm curious to hear what widespread use-cases of PDF aren't covered by HTML with additions like MathML. Even HTML with fallback to SVG for complex sections would be a gigantic step forward from PDF.
- nabla9 8y ago
  HTML and PDF are used for different purposes. PDF is file format presenting fixed-layout documents application independent manner. You don't want to lose universal standard for that. HTML is markup for presenting documents application dependent manner.
  - aasasd 8y ago
    They certainly should be used for different purposes, but currently I don't see why PDF is necessary for all the papers. Why do they need fixed layout? Plenty of them are already published in both PDF and HTML, what's different about the rest? It's especially baffling in the case of computer science and programming papers when the contents are the same as in blogs. I have dozens of PDFs in my reading queue, for which I'll probably have to buy a tablet. Why can't I read the same columns of text and pictures on my electroink reader when I can do that with HTML? Who the hell knows.
    - nabla9 8y ago
      PDF is for long term archival. There is no standard and widely recognized long term archival format for HTML pages (with all the extras). Web ARChive (WARC) provides method for bundling all the stuff in file in one file, but that's not enough. Plus the files will be quite large. You just don't know how your HTML and JavaScript renders 10 - 15 years from now. If you look old Web Archieve files you start to see how they become crap over time.
      - aasasd 8y ago
        HTML is the format. You pack it with images, CSS and whatever else, and you have the distribution format. > Web ARChive (WARC) provides method for bundling all the stuff in file in one file, but that's not enough. Plus the files will be quite large. Not enough how? What is there that you need besides what the server hands to you, if that's what rendered in the first place? What magical compression methods do you have in PDF that are better than ZIP compression used in MAFF, for example? > You just don't know how your HTML and JavaScript renders 10 - 15 years from now. If you look old Web Archive files you start to see how they become crap over time. Have a static HTML version that's rendered the same in the future. You know, the same way that you have a static PDF standard. How do you render Javascript in PDFs in a standard way? You don't use Javascript, that's how. Javascript is not for publication of static semantic text, so you don't use Javascript for papers, it's a no-brainer.
        nabla9 8y ago
        > HTML is the format. You pack it with images, CSS and whatever else, and you have the distribution format. HTML is not a good format and standard for that purpose. It's loose best effort markup with no good consensus on semantics. HTML with images is not good option for papers which have many equations. EPUB3 is emerging standard for what you want, but it's not really good complete solution that can replace PDF/A or TeX/LaTeX > Have a static HTML version that's rendered the same in the future We don't have that.
        aasasd 8y ago
        > It's loose best effort markup with no good consensus on semantics. And PDF has good semantics? Are we still on the topic of how HTML is better than PDF, or…? We're in the comments for a page that says that PDF tables are characters just floating in space, and people are saying most PDFs out there don't have semantic markup. Meanwhile HTML had semantics efforts for decades now, just choose your flavor. Blind people read HTML, you know. Do they read PDFs? > HTML with images is not good option for papers which have many equations. There's MathML for that, and IIRC other formats too. You could even have embedded TeX like Anki has. Use SVG for fallback. >> Have a static HTML version that's rendered the same in the future > We don't have that. Ooh, chicken-and-egg again? Freeze any of the versions from the past decade with the rendering standards, and you'll have it. But actually, it doesn't even matter, just like HTML 2.0 can be rendered fine on modern devices (aside from the different text size). Treat your paper as a paper instead of a webzine, don't use crazy layouts, just do “text, image, text” which you'll want anyway for the different displays—and your document will render fine in the future when it will be delivered straight to the retina, instead of making me scroll the PDF back and forth because no reflow.
    - danso 8y ago
      PDF is for printing and for (well, with the exception of a few edge cases) guaranteeing a layout and display given a set of paper dimensions. HTML has the advantage of responsiveness, but the inherent problem of variable output. When I was a professor and advising my students on creating portfolios, I told them to build websites of course. But I told them to also have a link to a one-page PDF because many organizations (not just academia) forward resumes within an organization to someone senior who eventually prints it out. And you don't want that person's first impression be whatever your website's print.css churns out.
      - aasasd 8y ago
        Variable output is not a problem, it's exactly what's needed. The days of standard paper formats are over, old man: in a decade people will have documents delivered straight to their retinas, or read into their ears—but everyone will still have to scroll PDFs back and forth with no possibility of reformatting, because lots of papers are published in it. If you want to have your document printed nicely, just prepare it for printing along with other methods of output. The best way to do it is to not use some crazy layout: have a single column with images between paragraphs, and your documents will look fine on any device. All problems of reformatting documents stem from the rigid two-dimensional layout mentality, while the flexible approach requires stepping back to the one-dimensional semantic flow. (Actually, standard paper formats were never around, because—surprise—my country doesn't use US paper formats.)
        danso 8y ago
        No, variable output is not "exactly what's needed". Layout of information is an actual skill -- whether it's a resume, a newspaper front page, or a photo gallery -- and we can expect layout to be an important design factor as long as humans have eyes that can process information in formats other than a byte stream. HTML has been an excellent format for delivering data and information across innumerable devices and visual dimensions. That adaptability comes with tradeoffs. As others have pointed out, anyone who's browsed the Internet Archive knows how HTML, beautiful and organized in its own time, can look like slop today. Paper/PDF's tradeoff, of course, is its rigidity.
    - bosie 8y ago
      While I agree that PDFs are at times cumbersome to use, I can't think of a valid solution to replace them. - Fixed layout seems much easier to handle than dynamic layouts. I.e. I can't recall any website that resizes the content correctly (correctly meaning i see the image within X% of scrolling of the referenced location; that doesn't just make the lines super-long). And without handling this properly, most of the arguments against PDF usage seem to go out the window. - I don't know of any way of highlighting, annotating, drawing on an HTML page reliably over multiple devices. Sure, something can be built on but it requires special software, still. - How do i send someone an HTML copy of a PDF as a single file? (embedded fonts, images etc)
      - aasasd 8y ago
        > I can't recall any website that resizes the content correctly (correctly meaning i see the image within X% of scrolling of the referenced location; that doesn't just make the lines super-long) I rarely have anything like that happen, so not even sure if I know the exact problem that you have in mind. As far as I can tell, it's specific to when authors put images somewhere distant to the text that mentions them in the one dimension of text flow, e.g. on the next page, or floating in a separate column from the text. The solution is, don't put images far from the text. HTML obviously requires a different approach from PDF: you don't think in terms of two-dimensional physical layout, you think in the one dimension of semantic layout. Most popular content sites are laid out that way now, and I mostly have no problem reading on the desktop or the phone. > I don't know of any way of highlighting, annotating, drawing on an HTML page reliably over multiple devices. Sure, something can be built on but it requires special software, still. It requires software just as PDF requires it. Such software isn't ubiquitous precisely because people don't see HTML annotation as a market. It's a typical chicken-and-egg market problem. To annotate HTML, you abandon the two-dimensional graphical approach just as you do it when producing the document. Instead, you highlight text in paragraphs and attach annotations and drawings to it, independently of the current rendering of the document. Any word processor allows you to highlight text in lines and paragraphs, you do the same thing here. Evernote's web clipper highlights HTML just fine. > How do i send someone an HTML copy of a PDF as a single file? (embedded fonts, images etc) You use a format that packs HTML with images, styling and fonts—e.g. MAFF. Come on, it's not rocket science to store what the server sends to the browser. Again, Evernote stores pages fine and could be used for sharing (if the program didn't go to crap overall). It's the same chicken-and-egg problem.
- throwaway287391 8y ago
  As somebody who's written papers for scientific conferences and journals, I can tell you that this just isn't going to work. I'm not a designer and making a LaTeX-generated PDF with few frills look decent is enough work already. Generating HTML and having to verify that it looks good on every major browser whether it's a mobile or desktop device is just completely out of the question. Seriously, think about it -- plenty of "professional" webpages with full time designers and UX engineers look like shit on mobile or Firefox or whatever (as you'll know if you've ever read reddit/HN comments). Imagine what a shitshow HTML papers from academics who are desperately doing whatever they can to get a readable version of their paper formatted during the 20 minutes before the deadline would be.
  - aasasd 8y ago
    For some reason I have to battle the same argument again and again in this thread. It's like people are blinded from having seen glamour magazines with crazy layouts. The solution is that you don't use fancy layouts for papers. Imagine that you only have HTML 2.0. Put your text in paragraphs, put images and large formulas in separate paragraphs between those of text. Now chuck that into a ready-made styling template that applies modern typographic conventions. Voila, you have a great-looking article that can be read on a display of any size, be that today or three decades from now. It can be reformatted into columns or stringed into a horizontal ribbon, printed on paper of any size, read aloud by a text-to-speech engine, saved in apps like Pocket or Evernote. Most popular content sites today use this layout for the main content column, and the pages can be read fine on phones or saved in apps. Markdown readmes on Github use this layout, and it's smooth sailing with them. Pages in HTML 2.0 from the 90s display just fine on modern devices, aside from the different text size. You don't need to be a designer or make sure that your articles look fine on different devices if you stick to this simple layout and use tested styling. Pages with full-time designers have problems on mobile devices because those people try to do fancy layouts. Don't use fancy layouts for papers. I've spent zero time fixing problems with layouts in Markdown or, by the way, in posts and comments on sites like Reddit and HN, because they don't allow me to do fancy layouts—and they stay readable on phones. If authors have to spend time fixing layouts of their papers, it's because they use too complex layouts which indeed would have problems displaying on different devices.
- aidos 8y ago
  PDFs are used to build buildings from, for one. And there's a time when you want your layout to be exact :-)

With Latex published to HTML. I'm curious to hear what widespread use-cases of PDF aren't covered by HTML with additions like MathML. Even HTML with fallback to SVG for complex sections would be a gigantic step forward from PDF.

nabla9 8y ago
HTML and PDF are used for different purposes. PDF is file format presenting fixed-layout documents application independent manner. You don't want to lose universal standard for that. HTML is markup for presenting documents application dependent manner.
- aasasd 8y ago
  They certainly should be used for different purposes, but currently I don't see why PDF is necessary for all the papers. Why do they need fixed layout? Plenty of them are already published in both PDF and HTML, what's different about the rest? It's especially baffling in the case of computer science and programming papers when the contents are the same as in blogs. I have dozens of PDFs in my reading queue, for which I'll probably have to buy a tablet. Why can't I read the same columns of text and pictures on my electroink reader when I can do that with HTML? Who the hell knows.
  - nabla9 8y ago
    PDF is for long term archival. There is no standard and widely recognized long term archival format for HTML pages (with all the extras). Web ARChive (WARC) provides method for bundling all the stuff in file in one file, but that's not enough. Plus the files will be quite large. You just don't know how your HTML and JavaScript renders 10 - 15 years from now. If you look old Web Archieve files you start to see how they become crap over time.
    - aasasd 8y ago
      HTML is the format. You pack it with images, CSS and whatever else, and you have the distribution format. > Web ARChive (WARC) provides method for bundling all the stuff in file in one file, but that's not enough. Plus the files will be quite large. Not enough how? What is there that you need besides what the server hands to you, if that's what rendered in the first place? What magical compression methods do you have in PDF that are better than ZIP compression used in MAFF, for example? > You just don't know how your HTML and JavaScript renders 10 - 15 years from now. If you look old Web Archive files you start to see how they become crap over time. Have a static HTML version that's rendered the same in the future. You know, the same way that you have a static PDF standard. How do you render Javascript in PDFs in a standard way? You don't use Javascript, that's how. Javascript is not for publication of static semantic text, so you don't use Javascript for papers, it's a no-brainer.
      - nabla9 8y ago
        > HTML is the format. You pack it with images, CSS and whatever else, and you have the distribution format. HTML is not a good format and standard for that purpose. It's loose best effort markup with no good consensus on semantics. HTML with images is not good option for papers which have many equations. EPUB3 is emerging standard for what you want, but it's not really good complete solution that can replace PDF/A or TeX/LaTeX > Have a static HTML version that's rendered the same in the future We don't have that.
        aasasd 8y ago
        > It's loose best effort markup with no good consensus on semantics. And PDF has good semantics? Are we still on the topic of how HTML is better than PDF, or…? We're in the comments for a page that says that PDF tables are characters just floating in space, and people are saying most PDFs out there don't have semantic markup. Meanwhile HTML had semantics efforts for decades now, just choose your flavor. Blind people read HTML, you know. Do they read PDFs? > HTML with images is not good option for papers which have many equations. There's MathML for that, and IIRC other formats too. You could even have embedded TeX like Anki has. Use SVG for fallback. >> Have a static HTML version that's rendered the same in the future > We don't have that. Ooh, chicken-and-egg again? Freeze any of the versions from the past decade with the rendering standards, and you'll have it. But actually, it doesn't even matter, just like HTML 2.0 can be rendered fine on modern devices (aside from the different text size). Treat your paper as a paper instead of a webzine, don't use crazy layouts, just do “text, image, text” which you'll want anyway for the different displays—and your document will render fine in the future when it will be delivered straight to the retina, instead of making me scroll the PDF back and forth because no reflow.
  - danso 8y ago
    PDF is for printing and for (well, with the exception of a few edge cases) guaranteeing a layout and display given a set of paper dimensions. HTML has the advantage of responsiveness, but the inherent problem of variable output. When I was a professor and advising my students on creating portfolios, I told them to build websites of course. But I told them to also have a link to a one-page PDF because many organizations (not just academia) forward resumes within an organization to someone senior who eventually prints it out. And you don't want that person's first impression be whatever your website's print.css churns out.
    - aasasd 8y ago
      Variable output is not a problem, it's exactly what's needed. The days of standard paper formats are over, old man: in a decade people will have documents delivered straight to their retinas, or read into their ears—but everyone will still have to scroll PDFs back and forth with no possibility of reformatting, because lots of papers are published in it. If you want to have your document printed nicely, just prepare it for printing along with other methods of output. The best way to do it is to not use some crazy layout: have a single column with images between paragraphs, and your documents will look fine on any device. All problems of reformatting documents stem from the rigid two-dimensional layout mentality, while the flexible approach requires stepping back to the one-dimensional semantic flow. (Actually, standard paper formats were never around, because—surprise—my country doesn't use US paper formats.)
      - danso 8y ago
        No, variable output is not "exactly what's needed". Layout of information is an actual skill -- whether it's a resume, a newspaper front page, or a photo gallery -- and we can expect layout to be an important design factor as long as humans have eyes that can process information in formats other than a byte stream. HTML has been an excellent format for delivering data and information across innumerable devices and visual dimensions. That adaptability comes with tradeoffs. As others have pointed out, anyone who's browsed the Internet Archive knows how HTML, beautiful and organized in its own time, can look like slop today. Paper/PDF's tradeoff, of course, is its rigidity.
  - bosie 8y ago
    While I agree that PDFs are at times cumbersome to use, I can't think of a valid solution to replace them. - Fixed layout seems much easier to handle than dynamic layouts. I.e. I can't recall any website that resizes the content correctly (correctly meaning i see the image within X% of scrolling of the referenced location; that doesn't just make the lines super-long). And without handling this properly, most of the arguments against PDF usage seem to go out the window. - I don't know of any way of highlighting, annotating, drawing on an HTML page reliably over multiple devices. Sure, something can be built on but it requires special software, still. - How do i send someone an HTML copy of a PDF as a single file? (embedded fonts, images etc)
    - aasasd 8y ago
      > I can't recall any website that resizes the content correctly (correctly meaning i see the image within X% of scrolling of the referenced location; that doesn't just make the lines super-long) I rarely have anything like that happen, so not even sure if I know the exact problem that you have in mind. As far as I can tell, it's specific to when authors put images somewhere distant to the text that mentions them in the one dimension of text flow, e.g. on the next page, or floating in a separate column from the text. The solution is, don't put images far from the text. HTML obviously requires a different approach from PDF: you don't think in terms of two-dimensional physical layout, you think in the one dimension of semantic layout. Most popular content sites are laid out that way now, and I mostly have no problem reading on the desktop or the phone. > I don't know of any way of highlighting, annotating, drawing on an HTML page reliably over multiple devices. Sure, something can be built on but it requires special software, still. It requires software just as PDF requires it. Such software isn't ubiquitous precisely because people don't see HTML annotation as a market. It's a typical chicken-and-egg market problem. To annotate HTML, you abandon the two-dimensional graphical approach just as you do it when producing the document. Instead, you highlight text in paragraphs and attach annotations and drawings to it, independently of the current rendering of the document. Any word processor allows you to highlight text in lines and paragraphs, you do the same thing here. Evernote's web clipper highlights HTML just fine. > How do i send someone an HTML copy of a PDF as a single file? (embedded fonts, images etc) You use a format that packs HTML with images, styling and fonts—e.g. MAFF. Come on, it's not rocket science to store what the server sends to the browser. Again, Evernote stores pages fine and could be used for sharing (if the program didn't go to crap overall). It's the same chicken-and-egg problem.
throwaway287391 8y ago
As somebody who's written papers for scientific conferences and journals, I can tell you that this just isn't going to work. I'm not a designer and making a LaTeX-generated PDF with few frills look decent is enough work already. Generating HTML and having to verify that it looks good on every major browser whether it's a mobile or desktop device is just completely out of the question. Seriously, think about it -- plenty of "professional" webpages with full time designers and UX engineers look like shit on mobile or Firefox or whatever (as you'll know if you've ever read reddit/HN comments). Imagine what a shitshow HTML papers from academics who are desperately doing whatever they can to get a readable version of their paper formatted during the 20 minutes before the deadline would be.
- aasasd 8y ago
  For some reason I have to battle the same argument again and again in this thread. It's like people are blinded from having seen glamour magazines with crazy layouts. The solution is that you don't use fancy layouts for papers. Imagine that you only have HTML 2.0. Put your text in paragraphs, put images and large formulas in separate paragraphs between those of text. Now chuck that into a ready-made styling template that applies modern typographic conventions. Voila, you have a great-looking article that can be read on a display of any size, be that today or three decades from now. It can be reformatted into columns or stringed into a horizontal ribbon, printed on paper of any size, read aloud by a text-to-speech engine, saved in apps like Pocket or Evernote. Most popular content sites today use this layout for the main content column, and the pages can be read fine on phones or saved in apps. Markdown readmes on Github use this layout, and it's smooth sailing with them. Pages in HTML 2.0 from the 90s display just fine on modern devices, aside from the different text size. You don't need to be a designer or make sure that your articles look fine on different devices if you stick to this simple layout and use tested styling. Pages with full-time designers have problems on mobile devices because those people try to do fancy layouts. Don't use fancy layouts for papers. I've spent zero time fixing problems with layouts in Markdown or, by the way, in posts and comments on sites like Reddit and HN, because they don't allow me to do fancy layouts—and they stay readable on phones. If authors have to spend time fixing layouts of their papers, it's because they use too complex layouts which indeed would have problems displaying on different devices.
aidos 8y ago
PDFs are used to build buildings from, for one. And there's a time when you want your layout to be exact :-)