8 ms·

Trust-by-default is pretty much the definition of social capital, which is thought to be incredibly important for a functioning society. Basically, it's more ef

by aesto 8y ago

Trust-by-default is pretty much the definition of social capital, which is thought to be incredibly important for a functioning society. Basically, it's more efficient to trust people and be exploited once in a while, than to never trust anyone, which would lead to high transaction costs for any social interaction. Short intro by Robert Putnam, the big cheese in the field: http://robertdputnam.com/bowling-alone/social-capital-primer/ http://robertdputnam.com/bowling-alone/social-capital-primer...

Joe-Z 8y ago
Exactly. The other day I was carrying 2 relatively heavy boxes (furniture; I just moved into a new place) and suddenly a guy comes up to me and asks if he can help me. At first I was kind of flabbergasted, but after a second I was like 'he's just trying to be nice' and gave him one of the boxes. We carried it until we arrived at my apartment complex and had a nice chat along the way. When we arrived we exchanged numbers, since I learned he was new in the city and looking to meet new people and improve his language skills. If my mum knew about this she'd probably think I'm crazy, being afraid of someone running off with her stuff. But in the end I think "trust-by-default" is a good way of going about life and meeting new people. Also, there's still gut-feeling. Maybe I'm an outlier there but I'm pretty quick in determining if someone is being sincere or just sweet-talking me to get what he/she wants.
- ionforce 8y ago
  > Maybe I'm an outlier there but I'm pretty quick in determining if someone is being sincere or just sweet-talking me to get what he/she wants. Personally, I feel the same way. But it's illogical. What data do you have that you're good at ferreting the genuine from the not?
  - ethn 8y ago
    Millions and millions of interactions accumulating into a well-oiled intuition.
  - gricardo99 8y ago
    Mostly likely that he has not been completely duped yet. That has the effect of quickly realigning your trust meter.
    - verbatim 8y ago
      That may realign it, but it doesn't mean you're good at it. Maybe Joe-Z fails in the other direction, writes off tons of people as untrustworthy (incorrectly) for no reason, and hasn't realized it.
      - Joe-Z 8y ago
        >writing off tons of people as untrustwothy... I think that‘s what most people do. I‘m actually waiting for me to be „completely duped“ one time and deliberately exposing myself to this risk. However, my experience so far has lead me to believe: Most people are really nice and the few that aren‘t shouldn‘t really be tainting your interactions with others that you just happen to not know yet.
  - Joe-Z 8y ago
    I of course don‘t have data to back this up. But, I think, a lot of it comes down to how you approach these sorts of situations. According to my experience, how open you are - and stay - in kind-of-sketchy situations will get you a long way in dealing with people that others might have just written off as „someone trying to scam me“. That actually reminded me of a really cool poscast episode I listened to this week: https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/long-distance https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/long-distance (A guy trying to get to the bottom of an indian call-center scam, leading to all sorts of pleasant interactions along the way)
    - deadmetheny 8y ago
      The second part of that episode is in no way pleasant - in particular when they met the two scammers at the bar. Their flippancy could have very easily led to a much worse ending than it did. https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/103-long-distance-part-ii#episode-player https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/103-long-distance-part...
      - Joe-Z 8y ago
        I know, I know... I wasn‘t referring to this part as being pleasant :)
- kreeWall 8y ago
  This is an interesting point, and is basically the premise of online dating apps/websites - it's better to trust that things have a chance of working out rather than not trying.
diminoten 8y ago
And honestly, what's the damage of the exploit in these cases? Someone who doesn't belong gets to be vaguely "part of things" for an event; that price, compared to the price of locking someone who does belong out, seems low.
chaostheory 8y ago
> Trust-by-default is pretty much the definition of social capital, which is thought to be incredibly important for a functioning society. Not all societies are the same. Trust by default is a luxury in many parts of the world. Typically the rule of law is just non-existent in these places.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Which why the parent qualified "for a functioning society".
  - chaostheory 8y ago
    You can have a low trust society that still functions. They have existed for thousands of years. They exist today.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      "Functioning" implies some quality criteria beyond mere existence... We don't look at a law of the jungle society and say "this is a functioning society" (even if technically it might be true: it does perform some functions).
      - chaostheory 8y ago
        I'm not going to categorize a war torn country that's in chaos as functioning. You can have a low trust society and still have a good economy as well as production
- brenschluss 8y ago
  Which places, and is this personal experience? Every place around the world I've been to has been incredibly hospitable -- and the more besieged by war, or poverty, the more hospitable places tend to be. More so than your average street in the USA.
  - 8y ago
ChicagoBoy11 8y ago
There's a lot more depth to your insight than you may know. My favorite book of all time is "The Evolution of Cooperation." The book basically takes a biology question, and uses basic game theory and simulations to explore the idea of cooperation between species. The remarkable thing is that given certain evolutionary parameters, the "cooperate/trust first, and just retaliate if you've been cheated on" strategy is incredibly robust.

by aesto 8y ago

Joe-Z 8y ago

Exactly. The other day I was carrying 2 relatively heavy boxes (furniture; I just moved into a new place) and suddenly a guy comes up to me and asks if he can help me. At first I was kind of flabbergasted, but after a second I was like 'he's just trying to be nice' and gave him one of the boxes. We carried it until we arrived at my apartment complex and had a nice chat along the way. When we arrived we exchanged numbers, since I learned he was new in the city and looking to meet new people and improve his language skills. If my mum knew about this she'd probably think I'm crazy, being afraid of someone running off with her stuff. But in the end I think "trust-by-default" is a good way of going about life and meeting new people. Also, there's still gut-feeling. Maybe I'm an outlier there but I'm pretty quick in determining if someone is being sincere or just sweet-talking me to get what he/she wants.

ionforce 8y ago
> Maybe I'm an outlier there but I'm pretty quick in determining if someone is being sincere or just sweet-talking me to get what he/she wants. Personally, I feel the same way. But it's illogical. What data do you have that you're good at ferreting the genuine from the not?
- ethn 8y ago
  Millions and millions of interactions accumulating into a well-oiled intuition.
- gricardo99 8y ago
  Mostly likely that he has not been completely duped yet. That has the effect of quickly realigning your trust meter.
  - verbatim 8y ago
    That may realign it, but it doesn't mean you're good at it. Maybe Joe-Z fails in the other direction, writes off tons of people as untrustworthy (incorrectly) for no reason, and hasn't realized it.
    - Joe-Z 8y ago
      >writing off tons of people as untrustwothy... I think that‘s what most people do. I‘m actually waiting for me to be „completely duped“ one time and deliberately exposing myself to this risk. However, my experience so far has lead me to believe: Most people are really nice and the few that aren‘t shouldn‘t really be tainting your interactions with others that you just happen to not know yet.
- Joe-Z 8y ago
  I of course don‘t have data to back this up. But, I think, a lot of it comes down to how you approach these sorts of situations. According to my experience, how open you are - and stay - in kind-of-sketchy situations will get you a long way in dealing with people that others might have just written off as „someone trying to scam me“. That actually reminded me of a really cool poscast episode I listened to this week: https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/long-distance https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/long-distance (A guy trying to get to the bottom of an indian call-center scam, leading to all sorts of pleasant interactions along the way)
  - deadmetheny 8y ago
    The second part of that episode is in no way pleasant - in particular when they met the two scammers at the bar. Their flippancy could have very easily led to a much worse ending than it did. https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/103-long-distance-part-ii#episode-player https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/103-long-distance-part...
    - Joe-Z 8y ago
      I know, I know... I wasn‘t referring to this part as being pleasant :)
kreeWall 8y ago
This is an interesting point, and is basically the premise of online dating apps/websites - it's better to trust that things have a chance of working out rather than not trying.

diminoten 8y ago

And honestly, what's the damage of the exploit in these cases? Someone who doesn't belong gets to be vaguely "part of things" for an event; that price, compared to the price of locking someone who does belong out, seems low.

chaostheory 8y ago

> Trust-by-default is pretty much the definition of social capital, which is thought to be incredibly important for a functioning society. Not all societies are the same. Trust by default is a luxury in many parts of the world. Typically the rule of law is just non-existent in these places.

coldtea 8y ago
Which why the parent qualified "for a functioning society".
- chaostheory 8y ago
  You can have a low trust society that still functions. They have existed for thousands of years. They exist today.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    "Functioning" implies some quality criteria beyond mere existence... We don't look at a law of the jungle society and say "this is a functioning society" (even if technically it might be true: it does perform some functions).
    - chaostheory 8y ago
      I'm not going to categorize a war torn country that's in chaos as functioning. You can have a low trust society and still have a good economy as well as production
brenschluss 8y ago
Which places, and is this personal experience? Every place around the world I've been to has been incredibly hospitable -- and the more besieged by war, or poverty, the more hospitable places tend to be. More so than your average street in the USA.
- 8y ago

ChicagoBoy11 8y ago

There's a lot more depth to your insight than you may know. My favorite book of all time is "The Evolution of Cooperation." The book basically takes a biology question, and uses basic game theory and simulations to explore the idea of cooperation between species. The remarkable thing is that given certain evolutionary parameters, the "cooperate/trust first, and just retaliate if you've been cheated on" strategy is incredibly robust.