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> In the end, though, oil, is a finite resource. Exactly. And it's not the only finite resource we depend on. And the "steady growth", expected by effectively

by acqq 8y ago

> In the end, though, oil, is a finite resource. Exactly. And it's not the only finite resource we depend on. And the "steady growth", expected by effectively all of the economists and politicians, speeds up the exhaustion of the resources (the amount of the resources thus used is an "exponential function"). Worth considering this example: "Bacteria in bottles -- Professor Albert A Bartlett" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73xdpoQFLQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73xdpoQFLQk Apparently, we've already past the point of using one half of all easily used oil reserves. But, aren't we lucky, we've found whole "3 new bottles": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale_reserves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale_reserves It's worth watching the whole talk: "Dr Albert Bartlett: Arithmetic, Population and Energy" As he introduces it: "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function."

coldtea 8y ago
>Exactly. And it's not the only finite resource we depend on. And the "steady growth", expected by effectively all of the economists and politicians, speeds up the exhaustion of the resources (the amount of the resources thus used is an "exponential function"). I'm also not sure our "renewable" sources will help us. Their production, transportation, installation, maintenance extraction of necessary materials, etc, for them and their supporting infrastructure, is largely dependent on oil energy as well. And with everything factored in, it's more than they currently give back.
- acqq 8y ago
  Wherever you want to maintain “growth” you’ll eventually hit the limit of the finiteness of the resources. “Growth” is simply not sustainable. Like you write in another comment it’s basic math.
the-dude 8y ago
Have you tried to replicate the bottle experiment?
- teddyh 8y ago
  Replicate? It’s a thought experiment.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Even better, the result is based on pure math. It doesn't need experimental replication, it's provably so. (It doesn't even need any special proof, anymore than 10+34 = 44 needs a proof of its own. It's basic calculus).
    - reacweb 8y ago
      In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica the conclusion that 1+1=2 appears only at page 379. It was a hard proof ;-)
      - taejo 8y ago
        That's only true if you take a pretty arcane definition of 1 and 2, BTW. In modern axiomatizations of mathematics, as well as Peano's 19th-century axiomatization of arithmetic, the definitions of 1 and 2 are simpler, and the proofs that 1+1=2 take a couple lines.
08-15 8y ago
Actual bacteria in actual bottles grow exponentially only for a brief period. The grow slows down to cubic, quadratic, linear as the limiting factors become space, area on the bottom of the bottle, height of the culture. Frankly, I see no value in a talk about a toy model that doesn't apply to the real world at all.
- acqq 8y ago
  > Actual bacteria in actual bottles grow exponentially only for a brief period Exactly. Because the resources are limited. Then look at graph of the total amount of energy that humanity uses: https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth104/node/1347 https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth104/node/1347 Is that sustainable? The gedanken experiment is exactly to demonstrate unsustainbility of “permanent growth” on which our politicians and economists depend on, nothing more. The question was: when will the single “bacteria” stop thinking “there’s so much more space to grow”? At 11:59? At 11:58 when there’s 3/4ths of the bottle still empty? Etc.
  - AstralStorm 8y ago
    Bacteria use chemical signals to communicate such conditions, they do not exactly work as single organisms any more than one of your cells do. They form colonies. Might be that humans also are a kind of colony organism if you squint just right.
  - 08-15 8y ago
    > Exactly. So, the bottle wasn't half full at 11:59. What was the guy's point again? > Is that sustainable? I don't know. I can't predict the future any more than you can. But I can tell you one thing: this is not exponential growth. Exponential curves don't have bumps. I would guess this is the superposition of multiple logistic functions. There is one thing, though, that is sustainable for at least 4 billion years: 15 billion people who consume as much energy as Americans do today. (compare http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/ http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/) It doesn't look as if we'll ever reach 10 billion. > “permanent growth” on which our politicians and economists depend on Politicians don't, they just argue with it. Because if people demand more free stuff and lower taxes, the only way to get reelected is to argue that a much better future is just around the corner and borrow the money. That never happens, of course, but thanks to inflation, anything expressed in money looks as if did indeed grow exponentially, and everybody got their free lunch, and taxes didn't get raised, but everybody is poorer for it somehow anyway. But Economists... I don't know why anyone ever listens to them. Nobody else can be so consistently wrong and still have such a devoted audience. When Physicists are in an argument, they run an experiment and settle it. Economists don't, they split into different schools who are all somehow right. (There's a reason why there is no Nobel Prize for Economics.) > when will the single “bacteria” stop thinking... At 11:58 when there’s 3/4ths of the bottle still empty? Bacteria don't think, they grow as long as they have nutrients. The exponential growth phase ends minutes into the experiment, as soon as the bacteria form a clump through which nutrients can't diffuse during one generation anymore. Minutes from the beginning of the experiment, not from the end! That's why the beginning, and only the beginning, of a logistic curve looks exponential. Which means the bottle wasn't 1/4 filled at 11:58, it was 1/4 filled after about 1/4 of the total time. Yes, the thought experiment is this misleading, and that's exactly why Bartlett talks about it but never runs it.

by acqq 8y ago

coldtea 8y ago

>Exactly. And it's not the only finite resource we depend on. And the "steady growth", expected by effectively all of the economists and politicians, speeds up the exhaustion of the resources (the amount of the resources thus used is an "exponential function"). I'm also not sure our "renewable" sources will help us. Their production, transportation, installation, maintenance extraction of necessary materials, etc, for them and their supporting infrastructure, is largely dependent on oil energy as well. And with everything factored in, it's more than they currently give back.

acqq 8y ago
Wherever you want to maintain “growth” you’ll eventually hit the limit of the finiteness of the resources. “Growth” is simply not sustainable. Like you write in another comment it’s basic math.

the-dude 8y ago

Have you tried to replicate the bottle experiment?

teddyh 8y ago
Replicate? It’s a thought experiment.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Even better, the result is based on pure math. It doesn't need experimental replication, it's provably so. (It doesn't even need any special proof, anymore than 10+34 = 44 needs a proof of its own. It's basic calculus).
  - reacweb 8y ago
    In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica the conclusion that 1+1=2 appears only at page 379. It was a hard proof ;-)
    - taejo 8y ago
      That's only true if you take a pretty arcane definition of 1 and 2, BTW. In modern axiomatizations of mathematics, as well as Peano's 19th-century axiomatization of arithmetic, the definitions of 1 and 2 are simpler, and the proofs that 1+1=2 take a couple lines.

08-15 8y ago

Actual bacteria in actual bottles grow exponentially only for a brief period. The grow slows down to cubic, quadratic, linear as the limiting factors become space, area on the bottom of the bottle, height of the culture. Frankly, I see no value in a talk about a toy model that doesn't apply to the real world at all.

acqq 8y ago
> Actual bacteria in actual bottles grow exponentially only for a brief period Exactly. Because the resources are limited. Then look at graph of the total amount of energy that humanity uses: https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth104/node/1347 https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth104/node/1347 Is that sustainable? The gedanken experiment is exactly to demonstrate unsustainbility of “permanent growth” on which our politicians and economists depend on, nothing more. The question was: when will the single “bacteria” stop thinking “there’s so much more space to grow”? At 11:59? At 11:58 when there’s 3/4ths of the bottle still empty? Etc.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  Bacteria use chemical signals to communicate such conditions, they do not exactly work as single organisms any more than one of your cells do. They form colonies. Might be that humans also are a kind of colony organism if you squint just right.
- 08-15 8y ago
  > Exactly. So, the bottle wasn't half full at 11:59. What was the guy's point again? > Is that sustainable? I don't know. I can't predict the future any more than you can. But I can tell you one thing: this is not exponential growth. Exponential curves don't have bumps. I would guess this is the superposition of multiple logistic functions. There is one thing, though, that is sustainable for at least 4 billion years: 15 billion people who consume as much energy as Americans do today. (compare http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/ http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/) It doesn't look as if we'll ever reach 10 billion. > “permanent growth” on which our politicians and economists depend on Politicians don't, they just argue with it. Because if people demand more free stuff and lower taxes, the only way to get reelected is to argue that a much better future is just around the corner and borrow the money. That never happens, of course, but thanks to inflation, anything expressed in money looks as if did indeed grow exponentially, and everybody got their free lunch, and taxes didn't get raised, but everybody is poorer for it somehow anyway. But Economists... I don't know why anyone ever listens to them. Nobody else can be so consistently wrong and still have such a devoted audience. When Physicists are in an argument, they run an experiment and settle it. Economists don't, they split into different schools who are all somehow right. (There's a reason why there is no Nobel Prize for Economics.) > when will the single “bacteria” stop thinking... At 11:58 when there’s 3/4ths of the bottle still empty? Bacteria don't think, they grow as long as they have nutrients. The exponential growth phase ends minutes into the experiment, as soon as the bacteria form a clump through which nutrients can't diffuse during one generation anymore. Minutes from the beginning of the experiment, not from the end! That's why the beginning, and only the beginning, of a logistic curve looks exponential. Which means the bottle wasn't 1/4 filled at 11:58, it was 1/4 filled after about 1/4 of the total time. Yes, the thought experiment is this misleading, and that's exactly why Bartlett talks about it but never runs it.