3 ms·

"US/Europa MSM" Totally OT, but I wish there would be a policy on here (and elsewhere, but let's start small...) where a certain list of shibboleths like 'MSM'

by roel_v 8y ago

"US/Europa MSM" Totally OT, but I wish there would be a policy on here (and elsewhere, but let's start small...) where a certain list of shibboleths like 'MSM' and 'HRC' and 'triggered' (just including that one to not single out any one side) would be prohibited on this site (and attempts at getting around it, like using 'M$M' instead, aggressively punished). Of course it's 'censorship' and many other bad things, but it would at least get rid of those posts that aren't being taken serious by 50% of the readership anyway, and therefore serve no purpose towards the overarching goal of having 'intelligent discussion'. If we're going to pretend we're all here to have balanced discussion and that this is no place for partisan warfare, we might as well create an environment that (tries to) reflect that.

posix_me_less 8y ago
You are getting dangerously close to promoting censorship of speech. It is true acronyms are often used to the detriment of the discussion, because lots of people may have difficulty understanding the intended meaning. Or the meaning is deliberately clouded in using acronyms. The better policy for this site would be, if one uses any ambiguous acronyms the first time in the discussion, explain them the first time you use them. That said, I understood MSM as Mainstream Media from context and results of 5-second web search, it was not very difficult to find this. When something becomes a concept, a name is appropriate and useful and learning new concepts and their names is one reason people are here. Why would this name offend you?
- roel_v 8y ago
  You're missing the point. Of course I know what 'MSM' means. What I'm saying is that by banning certain phrases that people use to signal something beyond the dry meaning of the word, you get better discussions because it reduces the (overt) tribalism. If someone would write for example (((Jake))) when referring to someone named Jake in some context (just for clarity, this is just a random name used for the sake of the example), that's not a case of 'oh you just need to know what it means', it's a case of someone using symbols or tone to signal an underlying sentiment while still being able to deny that you actually mean all the baggage that is implied. Sort of like you're doing now, where you're reducing 'MSM' as just another abbreviation (I don't think you're doing it deliberately, you probably just don't realize the broader context, not accusing you - but I'm still cautious). And it's only censorship for a very naive definition of the word. It's more tone policing, which ironically is one of the very phrases that would probably be put on the 'banned word list'. Which in turn indicates how it's not a very practical idea to actually implement. Maybe it should be seen more as a 'guideline to intelligent discussion', where anyone using loaded phrasing (either be it deliberately, which would signal them for not engaging in honest debate; or accidentally, which would signal them for not being informed enough to actually participate) should be 'encouraged' through social norms to learn how to better express themselves, where 'better' means in a way that de-escalates emotional flare ups rather than digging their heels in the sand, preparing for battle.
  - jjcc 8y ago
    Are you saying Mainstream Media is not neutral? Where you get that impression? or just your personal opinion? If it's not neutral, what's the neutral equivalent? Where do you see tribalism? Another thing I found that it seems to me the way that you put yourself into a judge's position by deciding which is "intelligent discussion" make all the discussion un-intelligent.
    - roel_v 8y ago
      The abbreviation 'MSM' is very much not neutral, yes. I haven't done a survey, but I do not think it's controversial that it's a term used by certain online subcultures (just like many others from all sides, again I am not picking sides here, it's just that this abbreviation started this whole sub-thread). Feel free to disagree, but I've seen it used in parody/stereotype mocking of such groups enough to know that I'm not the only one who would see it like that. Likewise, it is not controversial or even assuming to state that explicit tribalism and signaling of affiliation does not make for 'good' or 'high quality' (if you prefer those terms over 'intelligent') discussion. Sophistry is not 'intelligent' discussion. It may require high intelligence to pull off well, but it's not 'intelligent discussion'. I'm not saying which topics are 'intelligent' or not, or what position in those topics is, just that some forms of having any discussion are 'better' than others. It's a 'meta-judgement', if you will. 'Intelligent discussion' doesn't just mean 'discussion between two people who are intelligent and well informed on the subject'.
      - jjcc 8y ago
        OK. At least I understand more where you idea comes from. I'm not a fan of any subculture but a fan of truth nothing but truth. Again, what's the neutral equivalent? I mean the entities that often use some maybe unintentional but very sophisticated "deceptional" tricks( I know the word is quite strong). I’ve notice it very often but I guess a lot of readers might not aware of. I’m not assume I’m better than most readers here but just have broad connection to the other side of media and readers.

by roel_v 8y ago

posix_me_less 8y ago

You are getting dangerously close to promoting censorship of speech. It is true acronyms are often used to the detriment of the discussion, because lots of people may have difficulty understanding the intended meaning. Or the meaning is deliberately clouded in using acronyms. The better policy for this site would be, if one uses any ambiguous acronyms the first time in the discussion, explain them the first time you use them. That said, I understood MSM as Mainstream Media from context and results of 5-second web search, it was not very difficult to find this. When something becomes a concept, a name is appropriate and useful and learning new concepts and their names is one reason people are here. Why would this name offend you?

roel_v 8y ago
You're missing the point. Of course I know what 'MSM' means. What I'm saying is that by banning certain phrases that people use to signal something beyond the dry meaning of the word, you get better discussions because it reduces the (overt) tribalism. If someone would write for example (((Jake))) when referring to someone named Jake in some context (just for clarity, this is just a random name used for the sake of the example), that's not a case of 'oh you just need to know what it means', it's a case of someone using symbols or tone to signal an underlying sentiment while still being able to deny that you actually mean all the baggage that is implied. Sort of like you're doing now, where you're reducing 'MSM' as just another abbreviation (I don't think you're doing it deliberately, you probably just don't realize the broader context, not accusing you - but I'm still cautious). And it's only censorship for a very naive definition of the word. It's more tone policing, which ironically is one of the very phrases that would probably be put on the 'banned word list'. Which in turn indicates how it's not a very practical idea to actually implement. Maybe it should be seen more as a 'guideline to intelligent discussion', where anyone using loaded phrasing (either be it deliberately, which would signal them for not engaging in honest debate; or accidentally, which would signal them for not being informed enough to actually participate) should be 'encouraged' through social norms to learn how to better express themselves, where 'better' means in a way that de-escalates emotional flare ups rather than digging their heels in the sand, preparing for battle.
- jjcc 8y ago
  Are you saying Mainstream Media is not neutral? Where you get that impression? or just your personal opinion? If it's not neutral, what's the neutral equivalent? Where do you see tribalism? Another thing I found that it seems to me the way that you put yourself into a judge's position by deciding which is "intelligent discussion" make all the discussion un-intelligent.
  - roel_v 8y ago
    The abbreviation 'MSM' is very much not neutral, yes. I haven't done a survey, but I do not think it's controversial that it's a term used by certain online subcultures (just like many others from all sides, again I am not picking sides here, it's just that this abbreviation started this whole sub-thread). Feel free to disagree, but I've seen it used in parody/stereotype mocking of such groups enough to know that I'm not the only one who would see it like that. Likewise, it is not controversial or even assuming to state that explicit tribalism and signaling of affiliation does not make for 'good' or 'high quality' (if you prefer those terms over 'intelligent') discussion. Sophistry is not 'intelligent' discussion. It may require high intelligence to pull off well, but it's not 'intelligent discussion'. I'm not saying which topics are 'intelligent' or not, or what position in those topics is, just that some forms of having any discussion are 'better' than others. It's a 'meta-judgement', if you will. 'Intelligent discussion' doesn't just mean 'discussion between two people who are intelligent and well informed on the subject'.
    - jjcc 8y ago
      OK. At least I understand more where you idea comes from. I'm not a fan of any subculture but a fan of truth nothing but truth. Again, what's the neutral equivalent? I mean the entities that often use some maybe unintentional but very sophisticated "deceptional" tricks( I know the word is quite strong). I’ve notice it very often but I guess a lot of readers might not aware of. I’m not assume I’m better than most readers here but just have broad connection to the other side of media and readers.