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It is an odd work. Homer’s works are well constructed, but extemporized from, probably, many public performances. However Virgil was more Tolkien than Homer, wr

It is an odd work. Homer’s works are well constructed, but extemporized from, probably, many public performances. However Virgil was more Tolkien than Homer, writing an epic divorced from public performance. Personally I think to ascribe anti imperial (or pro) ideology to the book is anachronistic. I don’t think the ancient world would have seen ideology as a force in the ascendancy of empire. These things are the result of chance and the will of the gods in the ancient world. Philosophy in Virgil’s time had much more to do with how to handle life as it came at you rather than how it ought to be shaped (think Marcus Aurelias’s Meditations).

hammock 8y ago
You may be right, for instance Machiavelli didn't exist until the Renaissance.
deleted 8y ago
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empath75 8y ago
> Homer’s works are well constructed, but extemporized from, probably, many public performances. I was listening to a greek history podcast where it was suggested that the performance of Homer's works wasn't for entertainment, per se, but as part of public religious rituals, and that the formulaic aspects of it (the wine-dark sea) are similar to the kinds of ritualistic repetitions you get see in the catholic mass for example (amen, peace be with you, etc). The catalogue of ships makes more sense if you think of it as an oft repeated public ritual that was striving for inclusion for audiences across the greek world. They also suggested that it wasn't often performed all at once, but different sections of it would mark different special occasions-- again, similar to the way the bible is used in Mass. I'm not at all a greek history expert, but it was interesting.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  That kennings etc. show that the Homeric poems come from an oral tradition, was eventually accepted on the basis of Milman Parry's studies of Balkan folk poetry. That folk poetry (and similar traditions worldwide like the Kyrgyz Manas) is for entertainment. So, there is no need to claim that Homeric recitation must have been bound with religious ritual. Certainly Homer's forebears might have performed at public festivals that also included a religious element, but that doesn't mean the poetry was of the same nature.
involans 8y ago
If anything ideology was more pervasive than now. People back then did not see themselves as playthings of chance, or subject to random chance - they, like now, actively debated courses of action and took charge of their life. Read the Philippics or Thucydides or Cicero for evidence of people who thought they could make their own decisions. If anything Roman society was more committed to ideological explanations of the world; since Livy they attempted to understand their dominance as evidence of their particular manifest destiny and innate qualities. Internal politics were equally marked by ideological distinctions between the optimates and the populares. The Gracchi brothers are good examples of politicians who tied their careers closely to ideology. The alternative to ideology is naturalistic and mechanistic explanation - and that was something ancient society almost completely lacked. There were no economic theories of development, no theories of international relations, no sociology. I would suggest that Romans understood their ascendency in almost completely ideological terms.

hammock 8y ago

You may be right, for instance Machiavelli didn't exist until the Renaissance.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

empath75 8y ago

> Homer’s works are well constructed, but extemporized from, probably, many public performances. I was listening to a greek history podcast where it was suggested that the performance of Homer's works wasn't for entertainment, per se, but as part of public religious rituals, and that the formulaic aspects of it (the wine-dark sea) are similar to the kinds of ritualistic repetitions you get see in the catholic mass for example (amen, peace be with you, etc). The catalogue of ships makes more sense if you think of it as an oft repeated public ritual that was striving for inclusion for audiences across the greek world. They also suggested that it wasn't often performed all at once, but different sections of it would mark different special occasions-- again, similar to the way the bible is used in Mass. I'm not at all a greek history expert, but it was interesting.

Mediterraneo10 8y ago
That kennings etc. show that the Homeric poems come from an oral tradition, was eventually accepted on the basis of Milman Parry's studies of Balkan folk poetry. That folk poetry (and similar traditions worldwide like the Kyrgyz Manas) is for entertainment. So, there is no need to claim that Homeric recitation must have been bound with religious ritual. Certainly Homer's forebears might have performed at public festivals that also included a religious element, but that doesn't mean the poetry was of the same nature.

involans 8y ago

If anything ideology was more pervasive than now. People back then did not see themselves as playthings of chance, or subject to random chance - they, like now, actively debated courses of action and took charge of their life. Read the Philippics or Thucydides or Cicero for evidence of people who thought they could make their own decisions. If anything Roman society was more committed to ideological explanations of the world; since Livy they attempted to understand their dominance as evidence of their particular manifest destiny and innate qualities. Internal politics were equally marked by ideological distinctions between the optimates and the populares. The Gracchi brothers are good examples of politicians who tied their careers closely to ideology. The alternative to ideology is naturalistic and mechanistic explanation - and that was something ancient society almost completely lacked. There were no economic theories of development, no theories of international relations, no sociology. I would suggest that Romans understood their ascendency in almost completely ideological terms.