7 ms·

What's the motivation behind ordinances like this? I've never spoken to anyone who likes them, so I'm not really sure why cities are so aggressive about it. I a

What's the motivation behind ordinances like this? I've never spoken to anyone who likes them, so I'm not really sure why cities are so aggressive about it. I assume there must be a large segment of the population who are really bothered by food trucks for some reason, but I genuinely struggle to imagine why

booleandilemma 8y ago
I’m guessing these laws are made by people who don’t eat at food trucks.
paxys 8y ago
Not hard to see why people wouldn't want food trucks in a residential area.
- thrmsforbfast 8y ago
  It is for me. Why wouldn't you want a food truck parked outside the neighborhood park? Walk down to the park and pick up some dinner instead of hopping in a car and driving 10 minutes to apple/chilis/etc.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    > Why wouldn't you want a food truck parked outside the neighborhood park? Noise, smell, litter, crowds, extra traffic, taking up space from people who wanted to use the park, fumes from generators or burners... lots of reasons. > instead of hopping in a car and driving 10 minutes to apple/chilis/etc I mean these aren’t really the only two options are they, come on.
    - tikhonj 8y ago
      The same dynamic that results in zoning that prohibits food trucks also results in large swathes of residential area in suburbs with no real restaurant options inside walking distance.
      - alexashka 8y ago
        Suburbs almost by definition have very little that's walking distance. One house per family makes everything very spread out and far away - in exchange for everyone having a lawn and a backyard that's 'theirs'.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        jhbadger 8y ago
        Many suburbs aren't like that though -- they are just parts of a city that are outside official city limits and not those sterile "Stepford Wives" dystopias. I live in a suburb of Washington DC that is basically as dense as the the city itself and full of apartment buildings, restaurants, bars, and Metro station all within walking distance.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - mikeash 8y ago
        I would expect that food trucks would naturally stay away from such areas due to economics, anyway. You need to draw a lot of people, and there aren't a lot of people who are going to travel to visit a specific food truck, so you need passersby which means you need density and activity.
    - a2civictech 8y ago
      Our Planning Commission addressed this a bit last night (since this ordinance goes to them first for a formal vote, although last night was just a working session for discussion). The consensus seemed to be that although some people were in favor of no zoning restrictions (which I agree with, personally), those same members felt that it was too big of a challenge for this ordinance. Our Planner also clarified that food trucks are still bound by nuisance ordinances, e.g. for noise and fumes. Granted, claiming a fume nuisance is somewhat difficult, but we already do have laws for residential areas covering things like that. Planning Commission was also concerned about noise and exhaust from things like generators, which could very well happen in your neighbor's yard during a football game. There's also the use argument. Food trucks are a commercial use, and operating them in a residential zone then suggests that there's a certain commercial use in a zone that, for better or worse, isn't supposed to have that use (as I understand it). As much as we'd like more mixed use, that sort of thing might not work for now. The City also acknowledged that when you mix uses like that, especially in a residential area, it can be contentious for neighbors. All in all, I imagine they'll leave in the restriction about residential zones, which I think is fine for now. Right now, food trucks aren't specifically legal anywhere in the city, so this ordinance would be a great first step, even if we have to take some more steps later.
      - mark212 8y ago
        just a suggestion but in downtown San Diego, the City blocks off a street for a week and invites a dozen or so food trucks to come park there. They make an event out of it and staff it appropriately with extra clean-up and such. Huge, huge hit with the folks who work in the buildings nearby. Maybe get a few of the truck owners to band together and ask Ann Arbor to try out something like that.
    - thrmsforbfast 8y ago
      I guess I'm imagining a couple of trucks parked along the edge of a fairly stand-alone neighborhood park that has plenty of parking. I can think of multiple concrete locations where this would work great without causing a nuisance. Of course, I don't doubt that there are also more dense and/or differently configured suburbs where this wouldn't work as well. > I mean these aren’t really the only two options are they, come on. In many places those are the two options that a) aren't fast food or pizza, b) are family-friendly, and c) within 10 minutes of a large number of houses. Especially in parts of the country that drink more heavily, it's hard to find restaurants that satisfy (b)... tons of restaurants have a very bar-y atmosphere for most of the night. I mean, feel free to disagree. But... from personal experience, yes, these places exist.
  - paxys 8y ago
    Same reason why most people don't want restaurants or businesses in their neighborhoods, and why zoning exists in the first place. The slight hit in convenience is usually acceptable so residential streets are free from noise, crowds, traffic, waste etc.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Only in the US. Restaurants are embedded in residential areas everywhere I've been to.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    The park here permits a concession trailer (and multiple food trucks during events). I expect in Ann Arbor that some of the motivation is street parking, of which there is not nearly enough in areas with student houses. And then additionally the disruption of traffic on the narrow residential streets. The parcels that can have food trucks are near restaurants, so I think they aren't the issue.
mikeash 8y ago
I suspect it’s more like, 99% of the population is indifferent, a small number of people care a lot (in this case, it’s probably restaurant owners), and elected officials do what the small number wants because they’re the only ones voicing any sort of opinion. (And they probably donate to campaigns.)
- paultopia 8y ago
  This is a well-known phenomenon in political science---Mancur Olson, "The Logic of Collective Action," is the relevant read: small groups that can generate group-specific benefits (like suppressing competition for their businesses) have a much easier time carrying out organized political activity of all kinds rather than large diffuse groups trying to create public benefits (like food truck availability)
_raoulcousins 8y ago
My cynical reaction is that restaurants back them to get rid of competition.
mikeyouse 8y ago
Some people don't like other congregating in front of their stores and not buying anything but the most vocal opponent are restaurants. They feel like by paying substantial money for a restaurant lease, they shouldn't be subject to competition that can operate with far lower costs / standards. Think about if you owned a nice Mexican restaurant and then a taco truck parked outside during your rush hour. They have almost none of the fixed costs that you do and could undercut you pretty easily. I'm not convinced it's worth regulating their hours/locations, but I do sympathize a bit with the brutal economics of restaurants.
- lozaning 8y ago
  >they shouldn't be subject to competition that can operate with far lower costs / standards. Of course they should. There is no assurances or guarantees that any business venture is going to be successful. If you're running a mexican restaurant that goes out of business because of a taco truck, the answer isn't to outlaw taco trucks, it's to make your own restaurant better. If you can't change your restaurant and you go out of business isn't it your fault for not adapting to customer tastes and preferences, not the taco trucks fault because it was able to satiate customer needs?
  - icebraining 8y ago
    The restaurant's argument would be that the food truck is unfair competition, because it's using public resources (street space to park, pavement for buyers, city cleaners to cleanup food remains), whereas they have to pay for private space, cleaning crews, etc.
  - abdullahkhalids 8y ago
    With your line of reasoning, I guess a rich person thinking of opening a restaurant could follow following strategy. 1. Get a few food trucks and park them in front of all potential competitor restaurants. Sell subsidized food. 2. Wait till these restaurants close because they can't compete with the subsidy. 3. Start their own restaurant selling really bad food at expensive prices. 4. Profit. This is the same kind of strategy that tech giants often follow to push startups out of business. Obviously, my example strategy is extreme (and possibly illegal), but food trucks can easily drive good restaurants out of business resulting in a worse culinary scene in the city. The purpose of the regulation being discussed here is to eliminate such bad forms of competition that result in worse outcomes in the long term.
cascom 8y ago
I'm of two minds they are either: A. A clever way of effectively outlawing something without saying as much (because the legislator understands the implications but has cover as they are "merely keeping them out of residential neighborhoods") B. The unintended consequences of a legislator not understanding the ramifications of their own [well intentioned?] proposal
redavni 8y ago
Standup restaurants have a lot of fixed cost requirements especially with the local health departments. Also there are many local taxes on top of sales tax for restaurants. Food trucks bypass a lot of this overhead, and it isn't fair to the restaurants. A case of food poisoning can affect a large number of people as well. Lost wages, hospital visits, etc.
- briandear 8y ago
  Any data on food poisoning rates from food trucks vs restaurants?
matt4077 8y ago
A food truck seems completely benign to you and me. But I bet if one decides to park itself right outside your window it can have a dramatic effect on your quality of life.
- briandear 8y ago
  Not if the food is good!
davidw 8y ago
> I assume there must be a large segment of the population who are really bothered by You could fill in the blank after 'by' and there will be people who turn up at planning meetings or city council meetings to deliver spittle flecked rants about how it'll be the death of the city.

booleandilemma 8y ago

I’m guessing these laws are made by people who don’t eat at food trucks.

paxys 8y ago

Not hard to see why people wouldn't want food trucks in a residential area.

thrmsforbfast 8y ago
It is for me. Why wouldn't you want a food truck parked outside the neighborhood park? Walk down to the park and pick up some dinner instead of hopping in a car and driving 10 minutes to apple/chilis/etc.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > Why wouldn't you want a food truck parked outside the neighborhood park? Noise, smell, litter, crowds, extra traffic, taking up space from people who wanted to use the park, fumes from generators or burners... lots of reasons. > instead of hopping in a car and driving 10 minutes to apple/chilis/etc I mean these aren’t really the only two options are they, come on.
  - tikhonj 8y ago
    The same dynamic that results in zoning that prohibits food trucks also results in large swathes of residential area in suburbs with no real restaurant options inside walking distance.
    - alexashka 8y ago
      Suburbs almost by definition have very little that's walking distance. One house per family makes everything very spread out and far away - in exchange for everyone having a lawn and a backyard that's 'theirs'.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - jhbadger 8y ago
        Many suburbs aren't like that though -- they are just parts of a city that are outside official city limits and not those sterile "Stepford Wives" dystopias. I live in a suburb of Washington DC that is basically as dense as the the city itself and full of apartment buildings, restaurants, bars, and Metro station all within walking distance.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - mikeash 8y ago
      I would expect that food trucks would naturally stay away from such areas due to economics, anyway. You need to draw a lot of people, and there aren't a lot of people who are going to travel to visit a specific food truck, so you need passersby which means you need density and activity.
  - a2civictech 8y ago
    Our Planning Commission addressed this a bit last night (since this ordinance goes to them first for a formal vote, although last night was just a working session for discussion). The consensus seemed to be that although some people were in favor of no zoning restrictions (which I agree with, personally), those same members felt that it was too big of a challenge for this ordinance. Our Planner also clarified that food trucks are still bound by nuisance ordinances, e.g. for noise and fumes. Granted, claiming a fume nuisance is somewhat difficult, but we already do have laws for residential areas covering things like that. Planning Commission was also concerned about noise and exhaust from things like generators, which could very well happen in your neighbor's yard during a football game. There's also the use argument. Food trucks are a commercial use, and operating them in a residential zone then suggests that there's a certain commercial use in a zone that, for better or worse, isn't supposed to have that use (as I understand it). As much as we'd like more mixed use, that sort of thing might not work for now. The City also acknowledged that when you mix uses like that, especially in a residential area, it can be contentious for neighbors. All in all, I imagine they'll leave in the restriction about residential zones, which I think is fine for now. Right now, food trucks aren't specifically legal anywhere in the city, so this ordinance would be a great first step, even if we have to take some more steps later.
    - mark212 8y ago
      just a suggestion but in downtown San Diego, the City blocks off a street for a week and invites a dozen or so food trucks to come park there. They make an event out of it and staff it appropriately with extra clean-up and such. Huge, huge hit with the folks who work in the buildings nearby. Maybe get a few of the truck owners to band together and ask Ann Arbor to try out something like that.
  - thrmsforbfast 8y ago
    I guess I'm imagining a couple of trucks parked along the edge of a fairly stand-alone neighborhood park that has plenty of parking. I can think of multiple concrete locations where this would work great without causing a nuisance. Of course, I don't doubt that there are also more dense and/or differently configured suburbs where this wouldn't work as well. > I mean these aren’t really the only two options are they, come on. In many places those are the two options that a) aren't fast food or pizza, b) are family-friendly, and c) within 10 minutes of a large number of houses. Especially in parts of the country that drink more heavily, it's hard to find restaurants that satisfy (b)... tons of restaurants have a very bar-y atmosphere for most of the night. I mean, feel free to disagree. But... from personal experience, yes, these places exist.
- paxys 8y ago
  Same reason why most people don't want restaurants or businesses in their neighborhoods, and why zoning exists in the first place. The slight hit in convenience is usually acceptable so residential streets are free from noise, crowds, traffic, waste etc.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Only in the US. Restaurants are embedded in residential areas everywhere I've been to.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  The park here permits a concession trailer (and multiple food trucks during events). I expect in Ann Arbor that some of the motivation is street parking, of which there is not nearly enough in areas with student houses. And then additionally the disruption of traffic on the narrow residential streets. The parcels that can have food trucks are near restaurants, so I think they aren't the issue.

mikeash 8y ago

I suspect it’s more like, 99% of the population is indifferent, a small number of people care a lot (in this case, it’s probably restaurant owners), and elected officials do what the small number wants because they’re the only ones voicing any sort of opinion. (And they probably donate to campaigns.)

paultopia 8y ago
This is a well-known phenomenon in political science---Mancur Olson, "The Logic of Collective Action," is the relevant read: small groups that can generate group-specific benefits (like suppressing competition for their businesses) have a much easier time carrying out organized political activity of all kinds rather than large diffuse groups trying to create public benefits (like food truck availability)

_raoulcousins 8y ago

My cynical reaction is that restaurants back them to get rid of competition.

mikeyouse 8y ago

Some people don't like other congregating in front of their stores and not buying anything but the most vocal opponent are restaurants. They feel like by paying substantial money for a restaurant lease, they shouldn't be subject to competition that can operate with far lower costs / standards. Think about if you owned a nice Mexican restaurant and then a taco truck parked outside during your rush hour. They have almost none of the fixed costs that you do and could undercut you pretty easily. I'm not convinced it's worth regulating their hours/locations, but I do sympathize a bit with the brutal economics of restaurants.

lozaning 8y ago
>they shouldn't be subject to competition that can operate with far lower costs / standards. Of course they should. There is no assurances or guarantees that any business venture is going to be successful. If you're running a mexican restaurant that goes out of business because of a taco truck, the answer isn't to outlaw taco trucks, it's to make your own restaurant better. If you can't change your restaurant and you go out of business isn't it your fault for not adapting to customer tastes and preferences, not the taco trucks fault because it was able to satiate customer needs?
- icebraining 8y ago
  The restaurant's argument would be that the food truck is unfair competition, because it's using public resources (street space to park, pavement for buyers, city cleaners to cleanup food remains), whereas they have to pay for private space, cleaning crews, etc.
- abdullahkhalids 8y ago
  With your line of reasoning, I guess a rich person thinking of opening a restaurant could follow following strategy. 1. Get a few food trucks and park them in front of all potential competitor restaurants. Sell subsidized food. 2. Wait till these restaurants close because they can't compete with the subsidy. 3. Start their own restaurant selling really bad food at expensive prices. 4. Profit. This is the same kind of strategy that tech giants often follow to push startups out of business. Obviously, my example strategy is extreme (and possibly illegal), but food trucks can easily drive good restaurants out of business resulting in a worse culinary scene in the city. The purpose of the regulation being discussed here is to eliminate such bad forms of competition that result in worse outcomes in the long term.

cascom 8y ago

I'm of two minds they are either: A. A clever way of effectively outlawing something without saying as much (because the legislator understands the implications but has cover as they are "merely keeping them out of residential neighborhoods") B. The unintended consequences of a legislator not understanding the ramifications of their own [well intentioned?] proposal

redavni 8y ago

Standup restaurants have a lot of fixed cost requirements especially with the local health departments. Also there are many local taxes on top of sales tax for restaurants. Food trucks bypass a lot of this overhead, and it isn't fair to the restaurants. A case of food poisoning can affect a large number of people as well. Lost wages, hospital visits, etc.

briandear 8y ago
Any data on food poisoning rates from food trucks vs restaurants?

matt4077 8y ago

A food truck seems completely benign to you and me. But I bet if one decides to park itself right outside your window it can have a dramatic effect on your quality of life.

briandear 8y ago
Not if the food is good!

davidw 8y ago

> I assume there must be a large segment of the population who are really bothered by You could fill in the blank after 'by' and there will be people who turn up at planning meetings or city council meetings to deliver spittle flecked rants about how it'll be the death of the city.