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I'm writing this on my 3rd Macbook. I don't have any reason to spread FUD against Apple. I think dropping Java (there isn't currently a real alternative to Appl

by nir 16y ago

I'm writing this on my 3rd Macbook. I don't have any reason to spread FUD against Apple. I think dropping Java (there isn't currently a real alternative to Apple's) is a strong indication. The App Store policies are a strong indicator, and restricting iPhone/iPad development environments is a strong indicator. You may be able to do what you want on your own machine given enough knowledge/time. The issue arises when a business based on a Mac Java app becomes redundant when Apple feels like it, or when it will become very hard to make a living selling an app Apple doesn't feel is right for the Store. Once upon a time there was a company called Microsoft who controlled a popular OS. People who called themselves "hackers" generally didn't like it, since they asserted this power to control the product space as well, changing APIs or bundling software to eliminate competition. Apple has gone beyond Microsoft's wildest dreams, and are on track become comparably widespread - I don't think they get a pass just because the standby light has the same frequency as a human heartbeat.

jimbojohn 16y ago
Oracle will provide the JVM, if steve's email is any indication.
- mironathetin 16y ago
  why should Oracle do that? Do you know any bank or company that runs Oracle on Macs??????? I don't see any reason for Oracle to maintain java on this platform. We understand that oracle only moves its butt, if moving the butt makes cash. Does anybody know whether they make cash out of java on Macs? Even if Oracle would provide java, would anybody put so much trust into Oracle, to base the future of his/her software company onto this? Apple again has proven to be unreliable. I think, this is a serious blow either for java or for Apple itself. Probably we may have to fall back to c, fortran or delphi?
  - kls 16y ago
    Do you know any bank or company that runs Oracle on Macs No, but I do know a lot of developers that write Java code that runs on banking infrastructure, that do.
    - riffraff 16y ago
      it does sound more likely that a java dev on a mac gets a windows install as a second boot option than he changes the bank's infrastructure though :)
      - jonhendry 16y ago
        Or they could do their development on Windows or Linux in a VM. Or via VNC or the Windows equivalent. At the last big Weblogic project I worked on, the (many) developers worked on Windows in VMs, on Windows boxes. One advantage being that we could use VM images pre-configured with Eclipse and whatnot set up just right.
    - mithaler 16y ago
      That doesn't bode well. Isn't a large part of the appeal of a Mac that everything "just works"? How do you suppose sysadmins will now feel if banking infrastructure apps no longer "just work" and will now require an additional JVM to be installed from elsewhere and kept up to date through separate channels from Apple's?
      - grhino 16y ago
        I'd actually be curious to know of any banks that use Mac servers.
      - jonhendry 16y ago
        I expect they'll get along just fine, the same way companies rely on, say, VPN software where updates are distributed from the vendor's website rather than the OS vendor's website.
  - foljs 16y ago
    Even if Oracle would provide java, would anybody put so much trust into Oracle, to base the future of his/her software company onto this? Apple again has proven to be unreliable. Yes, because as we all know, SUN has been a bright example of RELIABILITY in regards to Java et al... The collapse of SUN, the Swing for the Desktop/JSF/Java FX fiascoes, the Oracle takeover and the recent JCP fights, totally inspire confidence in Java...
com 16y ago
The app store rules are a fairly smart move from a service and support perspective. They don't want to have to manage complex dependencies in the app store. Therefore no optional or deprecated packages. This move doesn't really support the conspiracy theory of an Apple lockdown strategy, although it certainly doesn't give any confidence that such a strategy is not in the making.
- nir 16y ago
  The current App Store policies aren't a theory. The move to the App Store for laptop/desktop was just announced. Apple isn't Evil, it does what any company would do if it could. It's disappointing to see this discussion degrading to Apple fanboy/hater or "conspiracy theory". I think App Store is a great solution for most users and developers. But not for the particular minority I define as hackers.
  - cpr 16y ago
    Yes, but Apple has given no indication they ever plan to shut down non-App Store distribution of software. That would be suicidal.
acqq 16y ago
Who is supposed to be interested in maintaining Java on OS X? Apple, if their platform were too weak to attract developers who develop specially for the platform. Oracle, if the Apple's platform is attractive enough. Note that Sun fought Microsoft to effectively take over Java on Windows. I know, MSFT one was not "pure," still that was the result. And one has to wonder if Apple would be sued the same way, since they also have OSX specific bindings. The current bet is: OSX just became interesting enough to let Oracle maintain Java on it, if they want and are capable. As far as I understand, the Java applications that were not already using OSX specifics weren't by any measure successful, and the only famous one is that FTP client, which is actually not a "write once works everywhere" Java app, but an OSX app accidentally written in Java. And it's an open source app. Can you please name some examples for "business based on a Mac Java apps?" Especially those that don't use OSX specifics.
- nervechannel 16y ago
  Can you please name some examples for "business based on a Mac Java apps?" Especially those that don't use OSX specifics. I don't understand this question. Either it's a Java app (no platform specified), or it's a Mac Java app that does use OSX-specific code.
  - acqq 16y ago
    Microsoft was sued by Sun because of "a deliberate course of conduct to fragment Java" and had to settle by removing their own Java implementation from the operating system. http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-10-1997/jw-10-lawsuit.html http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-10-1997/jw-10-lawsuit.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Java_Virtual_Machine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Java_Virtual_Machine As far as I understand Java license doesn't allow you to make a platform specific Java implementation. So who's then to bet his business on Mac Java apps? The only potentially "safe" approach is not to depend on Mac specifics. But is there any example of a profitable Java app (which made profit by targeting OSX customers) applying the mentioned "safe" approach?
    - pmjordan 16y ago

by nir 16y ago

jimbojohn 16y ago

Oracle will provide the JVM, if steve's email is any indication.

mironathetin 16y ago
why should Oracle do that? Do you know any bank or company that runs Oracle on Macs??????? I don't see any reason for Oracle to maintain java on this platform. We understand that oracle only moves its butt, if moving the butt makes cash. Does anybody know whether they make cash out of java on Macs? Even if Oracle would provide java, would anybody put so much trust into Oracle, to base the future of his/her software company onto this? Apple again has proven to be unreliable. I think, this is a serious blow either for java or for Apple itself. Probably we may have to fall back to c, fortran or delphi?
- kls 16y ago
  Do you know any bank or company that runs Oracle on Macs No, but I do know a lot of developers that write Java code that runs on banking infrastructure, that do.
  - riffraff 16y ago
    it does sound more likely that a java dev on a mac gets a windows install as a second boot option than he changes the bank's infrastructure though :)
    - jonhendry 16y ago
      Or they could do their development on Windows or Linux in a VM. Or via VNC or the Windows equivalent. At the last big Weblogic project I worked on, the (many) developers worked on Windows in VMs, on Windows boxes. One advantage being that we could use VM images pre-configured with Eclipse and whatnot set up just right.
  - mithaler 16y ago
    That doesn't bode well. Isn't a large part of the appeal of a Mac that everything "just works"? How do you suppose sysadmins will now feel if banking infrastructure apps no longer "just work" and will now require an additional JVM to be installed from elsewhere and kept up to date through separate channels from Apple's?
    - grhino 16y ago
      I'd actually be curious to know of any banks that use Mac servers.
    - jonhendry 16y ago
      I expect they'll get along just fine, the same way companies rely on, say, VPN software where updates are distributed from the vendor's website rather than the OS vendor's website.
- foljs 16y ago
  Even if Oracle would provide java, would anybody put so much trust into Oracle, to base the future of his/her software company onto this? Apple again has proven to be unreliable. Yes, because as we all know, SUN has been a bright example of RELIABILITY in regards to Java et al... The collapse of SUN, the Swing for the Desktop/JSF/Java FX fiascoes, the Oracle takeover and the recent JCP fights, totally inspire confidence in Java...

com 16y ago

The app store rules are a fairly smart move from a service and support perspective. They don't want to have to manage complex dependencies in the app store. Therefore no optional or deprecated packages. This move doesn't really support the conspiracy theory of an Apple lockdown strategy, although it certainly doesn't give any confidence that such a strategy is not in the making.

nir 16y ago
The current App Store policies aren't a theory. The move to the App Store for laptop/desktop was just announced. Apple isn't Evil, it does what any company would do if it could. It's disappointing to see this discussion degrading to Apple fanboy/hater or "conspiracy theory". I think App Store is a great solution for most users and developers. But not for the particular minority I define as hackers.
- cpr 16y ago
  Yes, but Apple has given no indication they ever plan to shut down non-App Store distribution of software. That would be suicidal.

acqq 16y ago

Who is supposed to be interested in maintaining Java on OS X? Apple, if their platform were too weak to attract developers who develop specially for the platform. Oracle, if the Apple's platform is attractive enough. Note that Sun fought Microsoft to effectively take over Java on Windows. I know, MSFT one was not "pure," still that was the result. And one has to wonder if Apple would be sued the same way, since they also have OSX specific bindings. The current bet is: OSX just became interesting enough to let Oracle maintain Java on it, if they want and are capable. As far as I understand, the Java applications that were not already using OSX specifics weren't by any measure successful, and the only famous one is that FTP client, which is actually not a "write once works everywhere" Java app, but an OSX app accidentally written in Java. And it's an open source app. Can you please name some examples for "business based on a Mac Java apps?" Especially those that don't use OSX specifics.

nervechannel 16y ago
Can you please name some examples for "business based on a Mac Java apps?" Especially those that don't use OSX specifics. I don't understand this question. Either it's a Java app (no platform specified), or it's a Mac Java app that does use OSX-specific code.
- acqq 16y ago
  Microsoft was sued by Sun because of "a deliberate course of conduct to fragment Java" and had to settle by removing their own Java implementation from the operating system. http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-10-1997/jw-10-lawsuit.html http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-10-1997/jw-10-lawsuit.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Java_Virtual_Machine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Java_Virtual_Machine As far as I understand Java license doesn't allow you to make a platform specific Java implementation. So who's then to bet his business on Mac Java apps? The only potentially "safe" approach is not to depend on Mac specifics. But is there any example of a profitable Java app (which made profit by targeting OSX customers) applying the mentioned "safe" approach?
  - pmjordan 16y ago