4 ms·

You mean illegal immigrants, of course. > that is trying it's hardest to strip citizens/permanent residents of their status. Those that obtained the status by

by smsm42 8y ago

You mean illegal immigrants, of course. > that is trying it's hardest to strip citizens/permanent residents of their status. Those that obtained the status by fraud, right? Do you think if somebody acquired the status by fraud, this should be excused because when it concerns immigration, laws are mere guidelines and should not really be enforced? Or what would be the reason to excuse fraud in case of citizenship/permanent resident status?

hef19898 8y ago
Ok, I see where you are coming from. And it is a pitty to see this kind of thinking from otherwise intelligent and educated people. So, here we go. e.g. Dreamers are not illegal immigrants, tjere was a law protecting them. I do follow US politics quite closely as of late, and up to now I dis not see any plausible proof of people getting resident status by cheating. There is asystem in place, and at the moment the current US administration is also pushing against legal residents of foreign origin. Zjing is the means used, like the use of food stamps, is targwting a specific sub group. This will not the affect the ex-pats from, say, Norway. It will affect migrants from Latin America. And with their path to citizen ship blocked by some BS like that zhat is a way to keep non-whites out. For that there is proof.
- smsm42 8y ago
  > And it is a pitty to see this kind of thinking from otherwise intelligent and educated people. What kinds of thinking? > Dreamers are not illegal immigrants What is "dreamers"? If you refer to people DREAM Act has been about, they are by definition illegal immigrants. That's the whole purpose of this law - if they weren't illegal, there would not be any need for this law to exist. The whole purpose is to convert them from illegal to legal status. This may be the right thing to do - I actually like this solution, if only it would be combined with actual immigration reform and not be just "well, we feel bad about you so we decided not to enforce any immigration laws anymore and see how it works out". But the absolutely first step for it to work is to recognize there are illegal immigrants that need this solution. > up to now I dis not see any plausible proof of people getting resident status by cheating Then you do not follow US politics as close as you'd like to think, or your ideological filter does not allow you to encounter the facts. > at the moment the current US administration is also pushing against legal residents of foreign origin What you mean by "pushing against"? The only "push" is if somebody is suspected of fraud, this will be investigated, and if the evidence of fraud would be found, the person who committed fraud would be denaturalized. > This will not the affect the ex-pats from, say, Norway. It will affect migrants from Latin America. It will affect anyone who commits fraud. There are much less people from Norway immigrating to US, and even less of them have reasons to cheat instead of following proper immigration procedures, so statistically more people will be caught in fraud from Latin America than from Norway. So what? Does US have some obligation to people of Latin America to suspend American immigration law because they are from Latin America? Or deport some Norwegians just to keep statistics nice? > And with their path to citizen ship blocked by some BS like that You mean US immigration laws? Yeah, too bad Americans dare to put some bullshit laws in front of people only exercising their natural rights to become US citizens without following naturalization procedure, too bad they require honesty in applications. No country would dare to do that, every other country just accepts whoever comes in and believes whatever they say, no question asked, citizenship granted right at the border, just sign on the line, and only stupid Americans (probably because they are racist) have immigration laws. Right? Implying that it's somehow racist to have immigration laws and actually enforce them makes no sense. Only in a bizarro world of modern US politics it can be seen as a viable argument.
vkou 8y ago
I also mean people legally seeking asylum, people who had a legally recognized status, people who have a legal status, that is being retroactively stripped, people in rural areas who were not issued sufficient documentation at birth, decades ago. It's funny you bring up legality, here - because the process by which those people are removed is the opposite of such. They are often deceived about their legal options, not provided adequate legal representation, are kept imprisoned until they confess, have few to no opportunities to appeal decisions made against them. > fraud Please explain to me how, twenty years ago, a two-year old was capable of committing fraud. Fraud requires mens rea. It is a kafka-esque mockery of a legal system.
Koshkin 8y ago
> You mean illegal immigrants They mean "undocumented workers."
- smsm42 8y ago
  If I lose my wallet, I am an "undocumented worker" - until I get a new set of papers. If I cross the border of a country in contradiction with its laws, I'm an illegal immigrant.
  - vkou 8y ago
    Note that the current administration is quite happy to not grant a large group of people that new set of papers, and prefers to deport them. In the Soviet Union, there was an idiom to describe this situation - roughly translated as "Once they shoot you, you go ahead and try prove to them that you're not a camel."

by smsm42 8y ago

hef19898 8y ago

Ok, I see where you are coming from. And it is a pitty to see this kind of thinking from otherwise intelligent and educated people. So, here we go. e.g. Dreamers are not illegal immigrants, tjere was a law protecting them. I do follow US politics quite closely as of late, and up to now I dis not see any plausible proof of people getting resident status by cheating. There is asystem in place, and at the moment the current US administration is also pushing against legal residents of foreign origin. Zjing is the means used, like the use of food stamps, is targwting a specific sub group. This will not the affect the ex-pats from, say, Norway. It will affect migrants from Latin America. And with their path to citizen ship blocked by some BS like that zhat is a way to keep non-whites out. For that there is proof.

smsm42 8y ago
> And it is a pitty to see this kind of thinking from otherwise intelligent and educated people. What kinds of thinking? > Dreamers are not illegal immigrants What is "dreamers"? If you refer to people DREAM Act has been about, they are by definition illegal immigrants. That's the whole purpose of this law - if they weren't illegal, there would not be any need for this law to exist. The whole purpose is to convert them from illegal to legal status. This may be the right thing to do - I actually like this solution, if only it would be combined with actual immigration reform and not be just "well, we feel bad about you so we decided not to enforce any immigration laws anymore and see how it works out". But the absolutely first step for it to work is to recognize there are illegal immigrants that need this solution. > up to now I dis not see any plausible proof of people getting resident status by cheating Then you do not follow US politics as close as you'd like to think, or your ideological filter does not allow you to encounter the facts. > at the moment the current US administration is also pushing against legal residents of foreign origin What you mean by "pushing against"? The only "push" is if somebody is suspected of fraud, this will be investigated, and if the evidence of fraud would be found, the person who committed fraud would be denaturalized. > This will not the affect the ex-pats from, say, Norway. It will affect migrants from Latin America. It will affect anyone who commits fraud. There are much less people from Norway immigrating to US, and even less of them have reasons to cheat instead of following proper immigration procedures, so statistically more people will be caught in fraud from Latin America than from Norway. So what? Does US have some obligation to people of Latin America to suspend American immigration law because they are from Latin America? Or deport some Norwegians just to keep statistics nice? > And with their path to citizen ship blocked by some BS like that You mean US immigration laws? Yeah, too bad Americans dare to put some bullshit laws in front of people only exercising their natural rights to become US citizens without following naturalization procedure, too bad they require honesty in applications. No country would dare to do that, every other country just accepts whoever comes in and believes whatever they say, no question asked, citizenship granted right at the border, just sign on the line, and only stupid Americans (probably because they are racist) have immigration laws. Right? Implying that it's somehow racist to have immigration laws and actually enforce them makes no sense. Only in a bizarro world of modern US politics it can be seen as a viable argument.

vkou 8y ago

I also mean people legally seeking asylum, people who had a legally recognized status, people who have a legal status, that is being retroactively stripped, people in rural areas who were not issued sufficient documentation at birth, decades ago. It's funny you bring up legality, here - because the process by which those people are removed is the opposite of such. They are often deceived about their legal options, not provided adequate legal representation, are kept imprisoned until they confess, have few to no opportunities to appeal decisions made against them. > fraud Please explain to me how, twenty years ago, a two-year old was capable of committing fraud. Fraud requires mens rea. It is a kafka-esque mockery of a legal system.

Koshkin 8y ago

> You mean illegal immigrants They mean "undocumented workers."

smsm42 8y ago
If I lose my wallet, I am an "undocumented worker" - until I get a new set of papers. If I cross the border of a country in contradiction with its laws, I'm an illegal immigrant.
- vkou 8y ago
  Note that the current administration is quite happy to not grant a large group of people that new set of papers, and prefers to deport them. In the Soviet Union, there was an idiom to describe this situation - roughly translated as "Once they shoot you, you go ahead and try prove to them that you're not a camel."