5 ms·

> but there are people - a lot of people - who do not consider their political opponents somebody worth treating with respect, civility and basic human decency,

by floren 8y ago

> but there are people - a lot of people - who do not consider their political opponents somebody worth treating with respect, civility and basic human decency, and engage their arguments instead of shutting them up and excluding them from participation in public (or even private) life as much as possible. But enough about Silicon Valley

bilbo0s 8y ago
>But enough about Silicon Valley... Not just Silicon Valley. That sounds like every nook and cranny of the United States. From Florida to the northernmost acre of Alaska, from Maine to Hawaii to Guam, and from Minnesota to Puerto Rico. Right wingers and left wingers are generally not interested in having a reasonable discussion with you. With a lot of those more extreme people it's not so much data and ethics they come armed with, but tiki torches and baseball bats.
- floren 8y ago
  You're quite right. The political ad deluge has been particularly bad in New Mexico this year, probably similar in other states. The ads are incredibly nasty.
- crooked-v 8y ago
  Comparing the groups equally seems pretty absurd when there are tiny numbers of violent leftists who are only sporadically public and have nothing resembling central organization, while violent rightists are organized and centralized enough to effectively temporarily take over a small city (see the complete lack of police enforcement with the Charlottesville march).
  - smsm42 8y ago
    > when there are tiny numbers of violent leftists who are only sporadically public What is "sporadically"? I read about violence in Berkeley and Portland almost every month. I've just seen a number of videos from violent Antifa groups in Portland taking over city streets, attacking pedestrians and motorists, literally yesterday - before that I've read about many other riots, including ICE blockade and such. Police is mostly ignoring them and treating them with velvet gloves. I don't know if they have central organization or how they are managed, but they seem to be organized, financed and supported enough to regularly perform takeovers, blockades and riots without being afraid at the least of the police. > are organized and centralized enough to effectively temporarily take over a small city Which city? Rally in Charlottesville in no way "took over the city", and there was police presence, which can be obviously seen in many photos. The police failed to effectively separate the marchers and counter-protesters, which ensured there was violence, so there was a police failure - all too common, in general the police is way too timid in cracking down on protest violence. Which is probably connected to the courts refusing to prosecute such violence - e.g. Berkeley professor that bashed people over the head with a bike lock got only probation for his violent behavior. Not a day of actual jail time. And this was probably the best they could do ever - 2018 rally of the same people is universally described as "pathetic failure", with virtually nobody showing up - they had like 30 people there. They may be organized, but their numbers are tiny. They never pulled off something that Antifa is routinely doing in Portland and Berkeley and never will be able to.
    - bilbo0s 8y ago
      >but their numbers are tiny... Again, lots of bigots in the US, just as there are everyplace else. This is a result of simple human nature however, and cannot be avoided. We just have to live with prejudice and bigotry. Which is why it's important that when it affects a fellow citizens life and limb, we should be "bringing the hammer" so to speak.
- smacktoward 8y ago
  It's hard to have "a reasonable discussion" with someone whose political position is that I am a subhuman who does not deserve to live.
  - smsm42 8y ago
    The number of people having such political positions is very small (probably in single thousands in US). The number of people treating policy disagreement or factual disagreement as "so you don't agree with me? So you don't believe me? This means you think I am a subhuman and probably don't deserve to live!" is much larger, unfortunately.
    - bilbo0s 8y ago
      >The number of people having such political positions is very small (probably in single thousands in US)... Well, I wouldn't go that far. There are a lot of bigots in the US. Just as there are everywhere else on Earth. Unfortunately, it's just human nature.
      - smsm42 8y ago
        There are a lot of people who have racial or other prejudices. But the number of people that think "that I am a subhuman who does not deserve to live" is very small. Even in the deep US South in the age of slavery most people, while being racist in various measure (to be sure, most people at that epoch probably were racist to some measure) in majority did not think people of other race "do not deserve to live". Different rights and privileges - sure, many supported that, prejudices - sure, a whole lot, but denying people of other race basic right to live? Even then most would stop there. Certainly the vast majority would now, when being a racist is way out of fashion. It is a human nature to prefer people like you (in various way) to people unlike you. But it's not in human nature to deny other humans right to live. At least not in a modern human nature in the US. It needs a very strong ideological brainwashing to get there. And, fortunately, only small number of people damages their brains in this way.
smsm42 8y ago
It's not an SV thing. While in SV the exclusionary tendencies are as strong as anywhere else, they are not the leaders but the followers in this. They didn't invent it, just enthusiastically embraced it, because their peer bubble ensures pretty much everyone thinks the same (or is hounded out). But other places - like certain academic disciplines, or certain entertainment industry branches - has gone much further on this road. And, of course, official mainstream politicians are now openly pushing it, something I would be surprised to hear in America a decade ago.

by floren 8y ago

bilbo0s 8y ago

>But enough about Silicon Valley... Not just Silicon Valley. That sounds like every nook and cranny of the United States. From Florida to the northernmost acre of Alaska, from Maine to Hawaii to Guam, and from Minnesota to Puerto Rico. Right wingers and left wingers are generally not interested in having a reasonable discussion with you. With a lot of those more extreme people it's not so much data and ethics they come armed with, but tiki torches and baseball bats.

floren 8y ago
You're quite right. The political ad deluge has been particularly bad in New Mexico this year, probably similar in other states. The ads are incredibly nasty.
crooked-v 8y ago
Comparing the groups equally seems pretty absurd when there are tiny numbers of violent leftists who are only sporadically public and have nothing resembling central organization, while violent rightists are organized and centralized enough to effectively temporarily take over a small city (see the complete lack of police enforcement with the Charlottesville march).
- smsm42 8y ago
  > when there are tiny numbers of violent leftists who are only sporadically public What is "sporadically"? I read about violence in Berkeley and Portland almost every month. I've just seen a number of videos from violent Antifa groups in Portland taking over city streets, attacking pedestrians and motorists, literally yesterday - before that I've read about many other riots, including ICE blockade and such. Police is mostly ignoring them and treating them with velvet gloves. I don't know if they have central organization or how they are managed, but they seem to be organized, financed and supported enough to regularly perform takeovers, blockades and riots without being afraid at the least of the police. > are organized and centralized enough to effectively temporarily take over a small city Which city? Rally in Charlottesville in no way "took over the city", and there was police presence, which can be obviously seen in many photos. The police failed to effectively separate the marchers and counter-protesters, which ensured there was violence, so there was a police failure - all too common, in general the police is way too timid in cracking down on protest violence. Which is probably connected to the courts refusing to prosecute such violence - e.g. Berkeley professor that bashed people over the head with a bike lock got only probation for his violent behavior. Not a day of actual jail time. And this was probably the best they could do ever - 2018 rally of the same people is universally described as "pathetic failure", with virtually nobody showing up - they had like 30 people there. They may be organized, but their numbers are tiny. They never pulled off something that Antifa is routinely doing in Portland and Berkeley and never will be able to.
  - bilbo0s 8y ago
    >but their numbers are tiny... Again, lots of bigots in the US, just as there are everyplace else. This is a result of simple human nature however, and cannot be avoided. We just have to live with prejudice and bigotry. Which is why it's important that when it affects a fellow citizens life and limb, we should be "bringing the hammer" so to speak.
smacktoward 8y ago
It's hard to have "a reasonable discussion" with someone whose political position is that I am a subhuman who does not deserve to live.
- smsm42 8y ago
  The number of people having such political positions is very small (probably in single thousands in US). The number of people treating policy disagreement or factual disagreement as "so you don't agree with me? So you don't believe me? This means you think I am a subhuman and probably don't deserve to live!" is much larger, unfortunately.
  - bilbo0s 8y ago
    >The number of people having such political positions is very small (probably in single thousands in US)... Well, I wouldn't go that far. There are a lot of bigots in the US. Just as there are everywhere else on Earth. Unfortunately, it's just human nature.
    - smsm42 8y ago
      There are a lot of people who have racial or other prejudices. But the number of people that think "that I am a subhuman who does not deserve to live" is very small. Even in the deep US South in the age of slavery most people, while being racist in various measure (to be sure, most people at that epoch probably were racist to some measure) in majority did not think people of other race "do not deserve to live". Different rights and privileges - sure, many supported that, prejudices - sure, a whole lot, but denying people of other race basic right to live? Even then most would stop there. Certainly the vast majority would now, when being a racist is way out of fashion. It is a human nature to prefer people like you (in various way) to people unlike you. But it's not in human nature to deny other humans right to live. At least not in a modern human nature in the US. It needs a very strong ideological brainwashing to get there. And, fortunately, only small number of people damages their brains in this way.

smsm42 8y ago

It's not an SV thing. While in SV the exclusionary tendencies are as strong as anywhere else, they are not the leaders but the followers in this. They didn't invent it, just enthusiastically embraced it, because their peer bubble ensures pretty much everyone thinks the same (or is hounded out). But other places - like certain academic disciplines, or certain entertainment industry branches - has gone much further on this road. And, of course, official mainstream politicians are now openly pushing it, something I would be surprised to hear in America a decade ago.