7 ms·

All the more reason to move from Oracle's Java to MS's .NET Core. They're not the big bad evil company they once were (they can't afford to be today.)

justinclift 8y ago
While this is a step in the right direction, MS still seem to be "all in" on telemetry. Until the telemetry and data sent by MS software can realistically be turned off completely, they shouldn't get any kind of positive treatment.
- bradford 8y ago
  <disclaimer, MS employee> MS adheres to GDPR regulations and has applied those protections to all users. You can opt out of telemetry, you can view what they've collected on you and delete it. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-extending-gdpr-protections-to-all-global-customers-heres-how/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-extending-gdp...
  - walterbell 8y ago
    Does this include data collected from activity on Windows 10 endpoints? Previously, this could only be disabled on Windows 10 Enterprise. Can all on-device data collection and telemetry be disabled on Windows 10 Pro or Home, including "Customer Improvement" data collection, crash logs, keystrokes, screen grabs?
  - danarmak 8y ago
    The article you linked points to an online Microsoft Account Privacy dashboard. I have Windows 10 installed with a local login. I don't have or want an online Microsoft account. It doesn't seem to be possible to disable telemetry in this case, or at least I haven't found out an (officially supported) way to do it.
    - mbesto 8y ago
      ^ I'm genuinely curious about this as well. Can anyone at MS clarify?
    - bradford 8y ago
      Bottom line, if MS is going to show you telemetry data that's been gathered, they've got to know its you that they've gathered it from, so authentication has to occur. Without going into details, it's hard enough to do this with an online account, and quite impossible for local logon scenarios, and getting it wrong opens up possibilities for malicious actors. So, that's why the privacy dashboard requires a Microsoft account. Best information I can provide on limiting telemetry for the local logon scenario is here: https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-10-feedback-diagnostics-and-privacy https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-10-feedback-diag... I realize that setting it to 'basic' isn't going to satisfy the conspiratorial minded among us, but I will say that I, personally, have no qualms setting my machine to 'basic'. More details, and instructions to disable via regedit following the instructions here: https://www.windowscentral.com/how-opt-out-customer-experience-improvement-program-windows-10 https://www.windowscentral.com/how-opt-out-customer-experien...
      - justinclift 8y ago
        Hang on, are you seriously saying people need to create a MS online account just in order to tell their own computer to NOT send data to MS? That's ridiculous. There should be an obvious friggin question during install "Enable telemetry and data collection?" and if the answer is no... that's it. No telemetry or data collection gets done. Ever. End of story and question doesn't get asked again. Ever. Any other approach is literally just weasel words trying to deceive people. "Just manually change this RegKey setting" is a good example.
        bradford 8y ago
        No, I'm saying that if you want to view or delete the data that MS has collected, you need an MSA. If you want to downgrade/disable it, you follow the instructions in the links provided.
  - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
    > You can opt out of telemetry, you can view what they've collected on you and delete it. Until the next update automatically re-enables it (and re-installs MS Paint and Candy Crush).
    - scruffyherder 8y ago
      Am I the only one that doesn't get apps auto installed? I wonder if it's because my locale is Hong Kong - English which seems to have basically cut me off from the world when it comes to media, and other recognized options...
  - ptx 8y ago
    Doesn't the GDPR require freely given informed consent? Forgetting to set DOTNET_CLI_TELEMETRY_OPTOUT=1 (or being unaware that you must set it) does not constitute consent.
    - gsnedders 8y ago
      It requires informed consent for any personal data being processed. It's entirely plausible to have a useful telemetry system without any personal data. (I have no knowledge of what MS does store.)
      - justinclift 8y ago
        > I have no knowledge of what MS does store. Nor does anyone outside MS.
    - zaarn 8y ago
      The GDPR only requires consent if it's personal data that is not necessary for doing business. You don't need consent to store the shipping address of a customer and you don't need to consent to run basic analytics on your database to see what products are popular and how many customers you have. You also don't need consent to process the IP address in the TCP connection from the customer browser so you can show a website (though you do need consent if you log the entire IP for analytics purposes).
      - ptx 8y ago
        Telemetry is not like storing your shipping address, though. It's more like the delivery guy delivering to your shipping address, waiting for you to turn your back and then rummaging through the stuff in your house – unless you happen to shout the magic phrase "Simon says no telemetry!" as soon as you open the door.
        zaarn 8y ago
        Not really. It's more like the delivery guy noting how long on average you take to get to the door and the average size of packages with the intention of being able to optimize the delivery route and pick the correct delivery vehicle.
- reitanqild 8y ago
  > While this is a step in the right direction, MS still seem to be "all in" on telemetry. In the latest release of VSCode getting to see the exact telemetry data sent got even easier and they even pointed it out in the release notes. (It is also easy to turn it off (see below). I haven't done it since the data I see are OK with me and I want to help the devs improve VSCode for me.) > Until the telemetry and data sent by MS software can realistically be turned off completely, they shouldn't get any kind of positive treatment. Another instance of this "all or nothing" attitude that we have here on HN (I guess it is legacy from Slashdot and Usenet). Steps in the right direction should be praised. This holds true for pets, kids and grown ups and I think companies too. You might not get a chance to reward the results you want if you cannot reward the steps to get there. Edited to add the first quote and comment. Edit 2: Turns out it is easy to turn off telemetry.
  - DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
    I agree that all-or-nothing isn't a good policy. But I'd like Microsoft's reputation to be proportional to how objectionable it's behavior is. For example, I don't want Microsoft's reputation to go from a C- to an A- because of this patent issue, when they continue to require telemetry in Windows.
    - reitanqild 8y ago
      > For example, I don't want Microsoft's reputation to go from a C- to an A- because of this patent issue, when they continue to require telemetry in Windows. We can agree on that. GP however wrote (emphasis mine): > they shouldn't get any kind of positive treatment.
  - golf1052 8y ago
    It's extremely easy to turn off VSCode telemetry, it's just a setting https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/supporting/faq#_how-to-disable-telemetry-reporting https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/supporting/faq#_how-to-di...
    - reitanqild 8y ago
oblio 8y ago
They're slightly less evil than they were, but they're still a company. To quote Brian Cantrill, they're still a lawnmower and will chop your arm off if you put it in the wrong place, without any hard feelings. I agree with you that they can't afford to be super evil, because they're not the only big fish anymore. They're actually not even the biggest one. I think it's a bit too early to decide if Java or .Net Core is better placed for the future, though.
- leereeves 8y ago
  Oracle's not the biggest fish either, but that hasn't improved their behavior. If Microsoft is a lawnmower that will chop your arm off if you put it in the wrong place, Oracle is a self-driving lawnmower that will hunt you down.
  - rl3 8y ago
    >Oracle is a self-driving lawnmower that will hunt you down. That will then litigate unless you already have a multi-year severed limb support contract.
    - hinkley 8y ago
      In neither case should you decide to take a nap on the lawn.
- mey 8y ago
  Your post makes me think you read that statement backwards. (The lawnmower comment is from an oracle talk, etc) It's proposing to move to .net from Java. With recent licensing changes to Java and microsoft's recent good behavior I have considered it myself.
  - oblio 8y ago
    I've edited my comment to clarify that I'm not backing any migration option (Java -> .Net, .Net -> Java). In my opinion both ecosystems are very solid :)
manishsharan 8y ago
I dont quite understand your point. You dont have to be on Oracle Java -- you could be on OpenJDK which is supported by RedHat among others.
- walterbell 8y ago
  There's an Oracle lawsuit about the Java API, which is common among all implementations.
bitofhope 8y ago
Their open source work in past few years is commendable and I'll give them kudos for it, even if it frequently gives off an air of feelgood lip service. .NET is cool, but otherwise it doesn't really feel like they're contributing anything particularly valuable or tangible. Not to discourage them from it, but I don't think the extent of praise being sung at them for their open source is a little more than warranted. But in no way am I going to refrain from calling Microsoft a big bad evil company even today, after all these years. My comfort zone issues with Windows aside, their relentless vice grip on corporate and organizational IT with Office suite and especially 365, exchange email, Azure and especially Azure AD, traditional on-prem active directory and such is showing no signs of loosening. Sure, they aren't Oracle but that's about the lowest bar you can clear in IT corporate ethics [insert cantrillian rant here]. I'd even be fine with letting go of the memories of 90s Microsoft's iron fist (easy for me, I'm too young to remember first hand) but MS of today is still too evil to deserve all the credit they're getting for being oh-so-wonderful nowadays. They absolutely can afford to be evil, just ask your sysadmin.
- roytries 8y ago
  ".NET is cool, but otherwise it doesn't really feel like they're contributing anything particularly valuable or tangible" Not to be snark, but .Net is one of the most used development eco-systems [1]. Making the tech open-source and actively helping it run on other OS-es than Windows seems pretty valuable to me :). At least to me its very valuable. [1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#technology https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#technology
simooooo 8y ago
People still used oracle products after they started bundling the likes of ask toolbar?
mixmastamyk 8y ago
All the more reason to move to Rust/Golang/Python.
- sjroot 8y ago
  Right! I read that comment and was like “uhhhh what?” But not all engineering teams have the flexibility of moving to platforms that are not as battle-tested as Java/.NET.
  - abledon 8y ago
    Government
  - mixmastamyk 8y ago
    Python is older than Java and now has optional type-checking. Golang is ten years old and runs at Google. Rust is on its way and a safe language by design. And there are other floss options.
executesorder66 8y ago
All the more reason to move from Oracle's Java to openJDK and also stay the fuck away from .NET.

justinclift 8y ago

While this is a step in the right direction, MS still seem to be "all in" on telemetry. Until the telemetry and data sent by MS software can realistically be turned off completely, they shouldn't get any kind of positive treatment.

bradford 8y ago
<disclaimer, MS employee> MS adheres to GDPR regulations and has applied those protections to all users. You can opt out of telemetry, you can view what they've collected on you and delete it. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-extending-gdpr-protections-to-all-global-customers-heres-how/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-extending-gdp...
- walterbell 8y ago
  Does this include data collected from activity on Windows 10 endpoints? Previously, this could only be disabled on Windows 10 Enterprise. Can all on-device data collection and telemetry be disabled on Windows 10 Pro or Home, including "Customer Improvement" data collection, crash logs, keystrokes, screen grabs?
- danarmak 8y ago
  The article you linked points to an online Microsoft Account Privacy dashboard. I have Windows 10 installed with a local login. I don't have or want an online Microsoft account. It doesn't seem to be possible to disable telemetry in this case, or at least I haven't found out an (officially supported) way to do it.
  - mbesto 8y ago
    ^ I'm genuinely curious about this as well. Can anyone at MS clarify?
  - bradford 8y ago
    Bottom line, if MS is going to show you telemetry data that's been gathered, they've got to know its you that they've gathered it from, so authentication has to occur. Without going into details, it's hard enough to do this with an online account, and quite impossible for local logon scenarios, and getting it wrong opens up possibilities for malicious actors. So, that's why the privacy dashboard requires a Microsoft account. Best information I can provide on limiting telemetry for the local logon scenario is here: https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-10-feedback-diagnostics-and-privacy https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-10-feedback-diag... I realize that setting it to 'basic' isn't going to satisfy the conspiratorial minded among us, but I will say that I, personally, have no qualms setting my machine to 'basic'. More details, and instructions to disable via regedit following the instructions here: https://www.windowscentral.com/how-opt-out-customer-experience-improvement-program-windows-10 https://www.windowscentral.com/how-opt-out-customer-experien...
    - justinclift 8y ago
      Hang on, are you seriously saying people need to create a MS online account just in order to tell their own computer to NOT send data to MS? That's ridiculous. There should be an obvious friggin question during install "Enable telemetry and data collection?" and if the answer is no... that's it. No telemetry or data collection gets done. Ever. End of story and question doesn't get asked again. Ever. Any other approach is literally just weasel words trying to deceive people. "Just manually change this RegKey setting" is a good example.
      - bradford 8y ago
        No, I'm saying that if you want to view or delete the data that MS has collected, you need an MSA. If you want to downgrade/disable it, you follow the instructions in the links provided.
- _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
  > You can opt out of telemetry, you can view what they've collected on you and delete it. Until the next update automatically re-enables it (and re-installs MS Paint and Candy Crush).
  - scruffyherder 8y ago
    Am I the only one that doesn't get apps auto installed? I wonder if it's because my locale is Hong Kong - English which seems to have basically cut me off from the world when it comes to media, and other recognized options...
- ptx 8y ago
  Doesn't the GDPR require freely given informed consent? Forgetting to set DOTNET_CLI_TELEMETRY_OPTOUT=1 (or being unaware that you must set it) does not constitute consent.
  - gsnedders 8y ago
    It requires informed consent for any personal data being processed. It's entirely plausible to have a useful telemetry system without any personal data. (I have no knowledge of what MS does store.)
    - justinclift 8y ago
      > I have no knowledge of what MS does store. Nor does anyone outside MS.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    The GDPR only requires consent if it's personal data that is not necessary for doing business. You don't need consent to store the shipping address of a customer and you don't need to consent to run basic analytics on your database to see what products are popular and how many customers you have. You also don't need consent to process the IP address in the TCP connection from the customer browser so you can show a website (though you do need consent if you log the entire IP for analytics purposes).
    - ptx 8y ago
      Telemetry is not like storing your shipping address, though. It's more like the delivery guy delivering to your shipping address, waiting for you to turn your back and then rummaging through the stuff in your house – unless you happen to shout the magic phrase "Simon says no telemetry!" as soon as you open the door.
      - zaarn 8y ago
        Not really. It's more like the delivery guy noting how long on average you take to get to the door and the average size of packages with the intention of being able to optimize the delivery route and pick the correct delivery vehicle.
reitanqild 8y ago
> While this is a step in the right direction, MS still seem to be "all in" on telemetry. In the latest release of VSCode getting to see the exact telemetry data sent got even easier and they even pointed it out in the release notes. (It is also easy to turn it off (see below). I haven't done it since the data I see are OK with me and I want to help the devs improve VSCode for me.) > Until the telemetry and data sent by MS software can realistically be turned off completely, they shouldn't get any kind of positive treatment. Another instance of this "all or nothing" attitude that we have here on HN (I guess it is legacy from Slashdot and Usenet). Steps in the right direction should be praised. This holds true for pets, kids and grown ups and I think companies too. You might not get a chance to reward the results you want if you cannot reward the steps to get there. Edited to add the first quote and comment. Edit 2: Turns out it is easy to turn off telemetry.
- DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
  I agree that all-or-nothing isn't a good policy. But I'd like Microsoft's reputation to be proportional to how objectionable it's behavior is. For example, I don't want Microsoft's reputation to go from a C- to an A- because of this patent issue, when they continue to require telemetry in Windows.
  - reitanqild 8y ago
    > For example, I don't want Microsoft's reputation to go from a C- to an A- because of this patent issue, when they continue to require telemetry in Windows. We can agree on that. GP however wrote (emphasis mine): > they shouldn't get any kind of positive treatment.
- golf1052 8y ago
  It's extremely easy to turn off VSCode telemetry, it's just a setting https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/supporting/faq#_how-to-disable-telemetry-reporting https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/supporting/faq#_how-to-di...
  - reitanqild 8y ago

oblio 8y ago

They're slightly less evil than they were, but they're still a company. To quote Brian Cantrill, they're still a lawnmower and will chop your arm off if you put it in the wrong place, without any hard feelings. I agree with you that they can't afford to be super evil, because they're not the only big fish anymore. They're actually not even the biggest one. I think it's a bit too early to decide if Java or .Net Core is better placed for the future, though.

leereeves 8y ago
Oracle's not the biggest fish either, but that hasn't improved their behavior. If Microsoft is a lawnmower that will chop your arm off if you put it in the wrong place, Oracle is a self-driving lawnmower that will hunt you down.
- rl3 8y ago
  >Oracle is a self-driving lawnmower that will hunt you down. That will then litigate unless you already have a multi-year severed limb support contract.
  - hinkley 8y ago
    In neither case should you decide to take a nap on the lawn.
mey 8y ago
Your post makes me think you read that statement backwards. (The lawnmower comment is from an oracle talk, etc) It's proposing to move to .net from Java. With recent licensing changes to Java and microsoft's recent good behavior I have considered it myself.
- oblio 8y ago
  I've edited my comment to clarify that I'm not backing any migration option (Java -> .Net, .Net -> Java). In my opinion both ecosystems are very solid :)

manishsharan 8y ago

I dont quite understand your point. You dont have to be on Oracle Java -- you could be on OpenJDK which is supported by RedHat among others.

walterbell 8y ago
There's an Oracle lawsuit about the Java API, which is common among all implementations.

bitofhope 8y ago

Their open source work in past few years is commendable and I'll give them kudos for it, even if it frequently gives off an air of feelgood lip service. .NET is cool, but otherwise it doesn't really feel like they're contributing anything particularly valuable or tangible. Not to discourage them from it, but I don't think the extent of praise being sung at them for their open source is a little more than warranted. But in no way am I going to refrain from calling Microsoft a big bad evil company even today, after all these years. My comfort zone issues with Windows aside, their relentless vice grip on corporate and organizational IT with Office suite and especially 365, exchange email, Azure and especially Azure AD, traditional on-prem active directory and such is showing no signs of loosening. Sure, they aren't Oracle but that's about the lowest bar you can clear in IT corporate ethics [insert cantrillian rant here]. I'd even be fine with letting go of the memories of 90s Microsoft's iron fist (easy for me, I'm too young to remember first hand) but MS of today is still too evil to deserve all the credit they're getting for being oh-so-wonderful nowadays. They absolutely can afford to be evil, just ask your sysadmin.

roytries 8y ago
".NET is cool, but otherwise it doesn't really feel like they're contributing anything particularly valuable or tangible" Not to be snark, but .Net is one of the most used development eco-systems [1]. Making the tech open-source and actively helping it run on other OS-es than Windows seems pretty valuable to me :). At least to me its very valuable. [1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#technology https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#technology

simooooo 8y ago

People still used oracle products after they started bundling the likes of ask toolbar?

mixmastamyk 8y ago

All the more reason to move to Rust/Golang/Python.

sjroot 8y ago
Right! I read that comment and was like “uhhhh what?” But not all engineering teams have the flexibility of moving to platforms that are not as battle-tested as Java/.NET.
- abledon 8y ago
  Government
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  Python is older than Java and now has optional type-checking. Golang is ten years old and runs at Google. Rust is on its way and a safe language by design. And there are other floss options.

executesorder66 8y ago

All the more reason to move from Oracle's Java to openJDK and also stay the fuck away from .NET.