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Like someone else said, I personally find that very large codebases written in dynamically typed languages tend to discourage refactoring. You may try to mitiga

Like someone else said, I personally find that very large codebases written in dynamically typed languages tend to discourage refactoring. You may try to mitigate the issue by writing the whole application as standalone, independent modules, but we all know that a bit of interdependence always creeps inside even the best designed application. I love Python; that's the first language I've learnt and I can't really live without its REPL. I only think that the industry has a tendency to excessively obsess towards certain languages, even when they are not the best tool for the job. For instance, I strongly believe that the academia's morbid obsession with Java has crippled a whole generation of new programmers, which are now unable to think and code in no other way but the Java™ Way. I won't say that python is as bad as Java in this regard (it isn't even close), but it annoys me to death when it looks like we're heading once again towards a language monoculture; at least this time the language isn't utter crap.

devxpy 8y ago
> looks like we're heading once again towards a language monoculture Isn't that's only true for data science? What about the JavaScript monoculture :( And academia still has courses for C java C++ etc. No respectable University teaches a single language!
- qalmakka 8y ago
  In many Universities, C introductory courses are taught by people that hasn't touched C in at least two decades, or has close to zero experience to how programming modern C is. More often than not, this C is taught by people that have only used Java in years; I've seen horrible stuff, such as C89 still being thought like it's the only standard available, or gets() being used by professors that have no idea whatsoever of what's wrong with them.
  - devxpy 8y ago
    Here in India, 90% of teachers haven't touched what they're teaching, like ever. But you still _have_ to study it because you need to give the exam... Not like it solves anything -- just that there's this side of the argument too.. > I've seen horrible stuff, such as C89 still being thought like it's the only standard available, or gets()... Youre absolutely right -- although one could argue that the curious will have the decency to look this stuff up (like myself) The teaching system is still pretty rekt on the python side of things. Its not like you'll find people who actually code teaching at Universities anyway :( Like now we're just going into how bad the teaching system is. The original argument that python is reaching is a monoculture seems weird to me, when I can't even run the damn thing on a browser..
    - kamaal 8y ago
      Any comparison with the Indian system is futile. Basically people hop on to <insert the flavor of the times technology> every few years, mindlessly. I'm told there are now tens of thousands of people taking ML/AI, blockchain etc courses in IT services firms. A while back it was cloud computing, before that Grid(Hadoop/Pig/Oozie), before that Python... At the end any new technology trend only has only 2 - 3 years, before people flood it and dilute both quality and wages. The education system is another mess, which no one can clean up because the education system is designed to address literacy skills at scale(quantity), not quality. Other big problem in the Indian system is endless optimization towards exams/interviews. Go to any OJ site on the internet and you see people even from Ivy Leagues(IITs etc) and NIT's flooding the site all day doing interview related algo work instead of focussing on their day jobs. Its not just Python, tomorrow some thing else could be famous and you can see thousands, may be even tens of thousands of people learning it in India in a few months/years. This is regardless of the merit of the technology.
      - devxpy 8y ago
        Very nicely put. People really do need to be taught how to make out buzzwords from real tech; and the major responsibility falls in the hands of universities. Maybe it's just because most people are just trying make their way out of poverty, and this kind of work _looks_ like a sure shot, get out of slum ticket. Maybe it's because most people are led to believe that money is the only thing that matters..
  - scarface74 8y ago
    That’s not new. gets() has been considered an anti pattern since I started programming in C in the early 90s.
mhandley 8y ago
At least some of academia agrees with you about Java. Our (large UK university) undergrads learn C, Python, Haskell and Java in their first year. We're aiming for them to get different things from each of these, and also to avoid them settling into a mindset where one language is how they think about programming. Currently I've got final year students doing projects in Rust, C and C# (each being appropriate in the appropriate domain). We didn't teach them Rust or C#, but they're not afraid of learning a new language while doing the project, which is as it should be.
collyw 8y ago
Its horrible getting into a new Python codebase and seeing that it has been written by a Java programmer.
- jernfrost 8y ago
  As an iOS developer I so hated getting into Objective-C code written by Java developers. They really don't get the principle of dynamic languages and they are too fond of making shitloads of classes for everything.
- 3rdAccount 8y ago
  I've seen short python programs (5 pages of code) mutilated with over architecture and boiler plate from a Java dev. The great thing about python is that short scripts of a few pages don't necessarily need a class if you're doing something super basic.
  - collyw 8y ago
    Agreed. An ex Java guy I was working with asked me how yo do a singleton in Python. I had to google it because I had never thought of the problem before. As the answer said a module with functions is essentially a singleton. No need to overcomplicate things.
- BjorksEgo 8y ago
  ah, a python code base I worked on once (>100KLOC) had the misfortune of mostly being written by a java programmer, he actually included getters and setters in every class, actually going as far make extensive use of metaclasses to autogenerate getters and setters for all the domain class. nightmarish system.

devxpy 8y ago

> looks like we're heading once again towards a language monoculture Isn't that's only true for data science? What about the JavaScript monoculture :( And academia still has courses for C java C++ etc. No respectable University teaches a single language!

qalmakka 8y ago
In many Universities, C introductory courses are taught by people that hasn't touched C in at least two decades, or has close to zero experience to how programming modern C is. More often than not, this C is taught by people that have only used Java in years; I've seen horrible stuff, such as C89 still being thought like it's the only standard available, or gets() being used by professors that have no idea whatsoever of what's wrong with them.
- devxpy 8y ago
  Here in India, 90% of teachers haven't touched what they're teaching, like ever. But you still _have_ to study it because you need to give the exam... Not like it solves anything -- just that there's this side of the argument too.. > I've seen horrible stuff, such as C89 still being thought like it's the only standard available, or gets()... Youre absolutely right -- although one could argue that the curious will have the decency to look this stuff up (like myself) The teaching system is still pretty rekt on the python side of things. Its not like you'll find people who actually code teaching at Universities anyway :( Like now we're just going into how bad the teaching system is. The original argument that python is reaching is a monoculture seems weird to me, when I can't even run the damn thing on a browser..
  - kamaal 8y ago
    Any comparison with the Indian system is futile. Basically people hop on to <insert the flavor of the times technology> every few years, mindlessly. I'm told there are now tens of thousands of people taking ML/AI, blockchain etc courses in IT services firms. A while back it was cloud computing, before that Grid(Hadoop/Pig/Oozie), before that Python... At the end any new technology trend only has only 2 - 3 years, before people flood it and dilute both quality and wages. The education system is another mess, which no one can clean up because the education system is designed to address literacy skills at scale(quantity), not quality. Other big problem in the Indian system is endless optimization towards exams/interviews. Go to any OJ site on the internet and you see people even from Ivy Leagues(IITs etc) and NIT's flooding the site all day doing interview related algo work instead of focussing on their day jobs. Its not just Python, tomorrow some thing else could be famous and you can see thousands, may be even tens of thousands of people learning it in India in a few months/years. This is regardless of the merit of the technology.
    - devxpy 8y ago
      Very nicely put. People really do need to be taught how to make out buzzwords from real tech; and the major responsibility falls in the hands of universities. Maybe it's just because most people are just trying make their way out of poverty, and this kind of work _looks_ like a sure shot, get out of slum ticket. Maybe it's because most people are led to believe that money is the only thing that matters..
- scarface74 8y ago
  That’s not new. gets() has been considered an anti pattern since I started programming in C in the early 90s.

mhandley 8y ago

At least some of academia agrees with you about Java. Our (large UK university) undergrads learn C, Python, Haskell and Java in their first year. We're aiming for them to get different things from each of these, and also to avoid them settling into a mindset where one language is how they think about programming. Currently I've got final year students doing projects in Rust, C and C# (each being appropriate in the appropriate domain). We didn't teach them Rust or C#, but they're not afraid of learning a new language while doing the project, which is as it should be.

collyw 8y ago

Its horrible getting into a new Python codebase and seeing that it has been written by a Java programmer.

jernfrost 8y ago
As an iOS developer I so hated getting into Objective-C code written by Java developers. They really don't get the principle of dynamic languages and they are too fond of making shitloads of classes for everything.
3rdAccount 8y ago
I've seen short python programs (5 pages of code) mutilated with over architecture and boiler plate from a Java dev. The great thing about python is that short scripts of a few pages don't necessarily need a class if you're doing something super basic.
- collyw 8y ago
  Agreed. An ex Java guy I was working with asked me how yo do a singleton in Python. I had to google it because I had never thought of the problem before. As the answer said a module with functions is essentially a singleton. No need to overcomplicate things.
BjorksEgo 8y ago
ah, a python code base I worked on once (>100KLOC) had the misfortune of mostly being written by a java programmer, he actually included getters and setters in every class, actually going as far make extensive use of metaclasses to autogenerate getters and setters for all the domain class. nightmarish system.