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I think you're completely wrong. You and I care about privacy and it feels like everyone does too because we're only getting signals from inside our own little

by vmsp 8y ago

I think you're completely wrong. You and I care about privacy and it feels like everyone does too because we're only getting signals from inside our own little tech bubble. People don't care about their privacy, it's a simple as that. At least not enough to stop using Facebook and whatnot. Most of my friends and acquaintances are software engineers and couldn't care less about Facebook's scandals and how it uses their data because they "use adblock, anyway". My less techy friends actually enjoy getting targeted ads since, at least, they're not completely inappropriate. Apple is indeed invested in the "we care about your privacy" narrative. Probably not our of the goodness of their hearts. It differentiates them from the competition even more and is yet another justification for their premiums. I agree with you, they're the good guys for now.

echevil 8y ago
Maybe those who care that much about privacy should use a complete different set of products. I, for one, would be more than happy to let Facebook/Google/Netflix/Yelp to use my personal data to customize their product to serve better content, better ads and better everything to me. I'm much more upset about Yelp when they keep recommending restaurants that I apparently won't care about even I've been feeding them so much information by checking into restaurants I actually like. I'd be glad if they share that information with Google/Facebook, who are much more likely to have better recommendation algorithms. I downloaded my Facebook history when they provided such a feature, and was completely unable to find anything interesting. Why would I care if they would protect my privacy or not. If protecting privacy leads to much worse user experience, I'd rather they don't
- andrei_says_ 8y ago
  What’s interesting in your Facebook history today is your daily route, when you use your phone, the people you’re connected to through two degrees of separation or by inhabiting the same locations at the same time, and also the provability to swing your vote on a few very particular issues.
  - echevil 8y ago
    I publish my daily route to Google map’s timeline feature. It can show where I have been to in high accuracy. It’s a pretty damn boring route
    - andrei_says_ 8y ago
      It is boring to you, today. It may not be boring for your future employer or future DEA investigator or future parallel-constructed investigation case agent in case you have a funny name or non judeochristian religion or your cousin is an environmental activist. All easily searchable, in a convenient hyperlinked online dossier, forever. > If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. Cardinal Richelieu
ilovecaching 8y ago
Actually, Apple collects plenty of information. They collect app usage statistics, one of the reason why they banned collecting that type of information from third party apps is because Google and Apple have monopolies over that extremely valuable data. Being able to see trends in app usage, who's getting user engagement, is huge. No, your contact details aren't that interesting to them. But your life is still interesting in figuring out how to direct their products. Don't be fooled just because they aren't sticking ads in your face.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
"People don't care about their privacy, it's a simple as that." People do care about their privacy - absolutely - and that 'care' is increasing. That said, I definitely agree with 'bubbletink'. "Privacy is not a product, it's a feature" is generally what I say, unless it's literally some kind of 'id securing' product you're selling. By that I mean, for a social network or any other non-security product, what users care about most is ease of use, cost, features, access to friends, hype/cool factor ... and then privacy is just one of those later tick-boxes. So I don't even think that a 'privacy first' Social Network will really take off unless it offers something else, more salient as it's primary offer, with 'privacy' just happening to be a really nice add-on, or better yet, something inherent or existential about the product or architecture. Also, I do think people are 'voting with their feet' as a lot of folks are switching to things like Instagram, wherein it's just some photos, the ability to message, and not a lot of the deep banter and political stuff. Just fashion, kiddies, kittens, celeb-selfies, and a lot less dialogue. This 'trend' is in a way inherently more private because it implies considerably less personal information, and considerably more default-private activity. Also remember that Snapchat got big because of 'disappearing videos'. It wasn't just 'stories' - it was 'stories that disappear' and can't be searched! A little bit of sexting innuendo there, but an inherent 'privacy' nature to that. In then end, we should also consider that many of us (esp. your Eng friends) are not stupid, and may just opt to use FB in a fairly minimalist fashion, i.e. not sharing too-too much. I used FB in that manner and I make no assumptions about what they are 'learning' about me, and frankly, I don't care that much. Apple is just not a data/social company - and so this new 'privacy trend' fell on their laps just about the same way the blockchain stuff fell on NVidia. It's a movement that is consistent with their current business model, and so it behoves them to continue in that direction and even support it. But yes, fully agree, most of us have quite a different perspective than 'joe user' we have to consider that.
sizzle 8y ago
And my friends think their phone is spying on them with the built in microphone, due to ultra personalized targeted data. Once I raise their awareness of scummy advertising industry privacy practices, in laymen terms, do they understand that there is a shadow industry tracking their movements and purchase history to manipulate them into purchasing products, do they agree that this is not the future they want to live in. In my experience, the amount of people that care are simply ignorant of what's going on in ad tech, of no fault of their own. They are tech consumers, raising families, working 9-5, living their life. We are the tech creators, we need to be looking out for them in addition to ourselves. How can we say they don't care when they simply don't understand?
- vmsp 8y ago
  In my experience, what you're saying's not true. I might have given the wrong impression but the friends I mentioned aren't ignorant at all. "Well, they do have to make money somehow." It's a choice. That's why I say they don't care. Also, I simpatize with your last sentence but you must understand that consumers expect a lot of software to be free, nowadays. It's really hard to compete with free so I don't blame companies who go the FB route.
dabockster 8y ago
> People don't care about their privacy, it's a simple as that. People DO care about their privacy. However, due to the market dominance of platforms like FB and others, they have no real reasonable alternatives due to lack of competition. So they have to choose between tolerating FB's practices or going with another service with worse UX and/or fewer features.

by vmsp 8y ago

echevil 8y ago

Maybe those who care that much about privacy should use a complete different set of products. I, for one, would be more than happy to let Facebook/Google/Netflix/Yelp to use my personal data to customize their product to serve better content, better ads and better everything to me. I'm much more upset about Yelp when they keep recommending restaurants that I apparently won't care about even I've been feeding them so much information by checking into restaurants I actually like. I'd be glad if they share that information with Google/Facebook, who are much more likely to have better recommendation algorithms. I downloaded my Facebook history when they provided such a feature, and was completely unable to find anything interesting. Why would I care if they would protect my privacy or not. If protecting privacy leads to much worse user experience, I'd rather they don't

andrei_says_ 8y ago
What’s interesting in your Facebook history today is your daily route, when you use your phone, the people you’re connected to through two degrees of separation or by inhabiting the same locations at the same time, and also the provability to swing your vote on a few very particular issues.
- echevil 8y ago
  I publish my daily route to Google map’s timeline feature. It can show where I have been to in high accuracy. It’s a pretty damn boring route
  - andrei_says_ 8y ago
    It is boring to you, today. It may not be boring for your future employer or future DEA investigator or future parallel-constructed investigation case agent in case you have a funny name or non judeochristian religion or your cousin is an environmental activist. All easily searchable, in a convenient hyperlinked online dossier, forever. > If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. Cardinal Richelieu

ilovecaching 8y ago

Actually, Apple collects plenty of information. They collect app usage statistics, one of the reason why they banned collecting that type of information from third party apps is because Google and Apple have monopolies over that extremely valuable data. Being able to see trends in app usage, who's getting user engagement, is huge. No, your contact details aren't that interesting to them. But your life is still interesting in figuring out how to direct their products. Don't be fooled just because they aren't sticking ads in your face.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

"People don't care about their privacy, it's a simple as that." People do care about their privacy - absolutely - and that 'care' is increasing. That said, I definitely agree with 'bubbletink'. "Privacy is not a product, it's a feature" is generally what I say, unless it's literally some kind of 'id securing' product you're selling. By that I mean, for a social network or any other non-security product, what users care about most is ease of use, cost, features, access to friends, hype/cool factor ... and then privacy is just one of those later tick-boxes. So I don't even think that a 'privacy first' Social Network will really take off unless it offers something else, more salient as it's primary offer, with 'privacy' just happening to be a really nice add-on, or better yet, something inherent or existential about the product or architecture. Also, I do think people are 'voting with their feet' as a lot of folks are switching to things like Instagram, wherein it's just some photos, the ability to message, and not a lot of the deep banter and political stuff. Just fashion, kiddies, kittens, celeb-selfies, and a lot less dialogue. This 'trend' is in a way inherently more private because it implies considerably less personal information, and considerably more default-private activity. Also remember that Snapchat got big because of 'disappearing videos'. It wasn't just 'stories' - it was 'stories that disappear' and can't be searched! A little bit of sexting innuendo there, but an inherent 'privacy' nature to that. In then end, we should also consider that many of us (esp. your Eng friends) are not stupid, and may just opt to use FB in a fairly minimalist fashion, i.e. not sharing too-too much. I used FB in that manner and I make no assumptions about what they are 'learning' about me, and frankly, I don't care that much. Apple is just not a data/social company - and so this new 'privacy trend' fell on their laps just about the same way the blockchain stuff fell on NVidia. It's a movement that is consistent with their current business model, and so it behoves them to continue in that direction and even support it. But yes, fully agree, most of us have quite a different perspective than 'joe user' we have to consider that.

sizzle 8y ago

And my friends think their phone is spying on them with the built in microphone, due to ultra personalized targeted data. Once I raise their awareness of scummy advertising industry privacy practices, in laymen terms, do they understand that there is a shadow industry tracking their movements and purchase history to manipulate them into purchasing products, do they agree that this is not the future they want to live in. In my experience, the amount of people that care are simply ignorant of what's going on in ad tech, of no fault of their own. They are tech consumers, raising families, working 9-5, living their life. We are the tech creators, we need to be looking out for them in addition to ourselves. How can we say they don't care when they simply don't understand?

vmsp 8y ago
In my experience, what you're saying's not true. I might have given the wrong impression but the friends I mentioned aren't ignorant at all. "Well, they do have to make money somehow." It's a choice. That's why I say they don't care. Also, I simpatize with your last sentence but you must understand that consumers expect a lot of software to be free, nowadays. It's really hard to compete with free so I don't blame companies who go the FB route.

dabockster 8y ago

> People don't care about their privacy, it's a simple as that. People DO care about their privacy. However, due to the market dominance of platforms like FB and others, they have no real reasonable alternatives due to lack of competition. So they have to choose between tolerating FB's practices or going with another service with worse UX and/or fewer features.