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I don't see that much sadness in this. These people aren't zoo animals. They want to enjoy modern life and the things that come from it. Things like rights f

I don't see that much sadness in this. These people aren't zoo animals. They want to enjoy modern life and the things that come from it. Things like rights for women.

jxub 8y ago
Actually, primal tribes had overally better women rights than centralised populations with different "-cracies" which sprang from the discovery of farming in the darkness of Neolithic.
- lamarpye 8y ago
  Actually, don't really see how that is relevant to this particular example.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  how do we know this?
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  You’re only half-right. It’s true that hunter-gatherer societies are traditionally much egalitarian than agricultural ones, but this does not apply to pastoral nomads, which is what the Bakhtiari, and other well-known nomads like the Bedouin, are. Nomads and hunter-gatherers aren’t the same thing and their societies look pretty different: nomads are about as patriarchal as you’d expect of traditional tribes.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    Even saying that hunter gatherer societies were more egalitarian is only somewhat right. They were egalitarian in term of wealth, but that's vacuously true because such societies don't have any wealth in the traditional sense. However things like status and access to reproductive opportunities were very non-egalitarian. I recall reading studies that found that only about 40% of men in hunter gatherer societies produced descendants (due to widespread polygamy that increased reproductive opportunities to a select few men, while depriving it of many others), as compared to 70-80% in agriculturalist societies. Inequalities do exists, it just manifests itself differently because these societies don't have wealth in the way we usually recognize it.
neaden 8y ago
We lose knowledge, diversity, skills, and a link to our past. I understand why the people are leaving, I would probably make the same choice. But we shouldn't also act like there isn't a loss.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
  I guess whether this is a big problem depends on what you value. From some perspectives, knowledge and skills are not ends unto themselves, but only have utility in a specific context. For example, I care not that the skill of carving elephant ivory is basically a lost art at this point. Diversity? I can't say that the presence of nomads in the desert was really moving the needle on that very much in my daily life. A link to our past? Perhaps, but, as GP pointed out, only in the sense of a living museum exhibit. It is not like many people actually go to encounter this link personally, and in any case, even if they did, these are people. I admit a certain amount of wistful nostalgia, but I personally don't consider nostalgia to be the same thing as sadness. Nostalgia is most often a delusion, not a genuine recollection of the good old days.
  - pm90 8y ago
    You're taking a very utilitarian view of these things. Nothing wrong with that. But many people enjoy knowing that there are still those who stick by their old ways without there being any tangible benefit to themselves or the rest of society.
- rleigh 8y ago
  While this is true, this process has also happened in our own culture, albeit a few hundred years ago. In the UK the industrial revolution and agricultural mechanisation caused a huge migration from the countryside to the cities. Today, you can still see plenty of ruins of old settlements, cottages, churches, etc. which were abandoned and left to decay. In many parts of Scotland, you can walk to shielings, which were housing for herdsmen during the summer months. They would migrate there with their cattle and stay up in the hills, and migrate back down during winter when it was too inhospitable. They would have had a fairly boring and miserable existence. Living in relative isolation with no company but the animals, all food having to be brought in, and then long walks to the towns and cities to sell them. Today, cattle are kept in fields, fed with grass and cattle feed, and moved around in lorries. While there's a certain romanticism for the migratory lifestyle, and it might even be novel and interesting for a short while, I don't think the drudgery in the long term is something I could tolerate.
ozmbie 8y ago
I think the larger concern people have with stories like this, is that it’s one part of all human culture becoming homogenized. And we feel something is lost when that happens. As Terence McKenna put it: “All culture is being destroyed, all culture is being sold down the river by the sorts of people who want to turn the entire planet into an international airport arrival concourse”
- cyberpunk0 8y ago
  Nail on the head. Nice McKenna quote
- justin 8y ago
  Easy for Terence McKenna to say when he isn’t the one living the life of a nomad, or any other culture where those in it want to transition to a modern lifestyle. “The sorts of people who want to turn the entire planet into an international airport arrival concourse” are largely the entire planet.
  - cyberpunk0 8y ago
    That is an anecdotal opinion not based in much reality. And if the majority of the world really does wish to turn this planet into a mass, hollow consumerist engine to make rich people richer then get me off of it because we really should be killed by a meteor.
adrianN 8y ago
I wonder whether people would be willing to pay for "museum nomads" to live a traditional life, like the museum Fremen in Dune.

I don't see that much sadness in this. These people aren't zoo animals. They want to enjoy modern life and the things that come from it. Things like rights for women.

jxub 8y ago

Actually, primal tribes had overally better women rights than centralised populations with different "-cracies" which sprang from the discovery of farming in the darkness of Neolithic.

lamarpye 8y ago
Actually, don't really see how that is relevant to this particular example.
leetcrew 8y ago
how do we know this?
Analemma_ 8y ago
You’re only half-right. It’s true that hunter-gatherer societies are traditionally much egalitarian than agricultural ones, but this does not apply to pastoral nomads, which is what the Bakhtiari, and other well-known nomads like the Bedouin, are. Nomads and hunter-gatherers aren’t the same thing and their societies look pretty different: nomads are about as patriarchal as you’d expect of traditional tribes.
- manfredo 8y ago
  Even saying that hunter gatherer societies were more egalitarian is only somewhat right. They were egalitarian in term of wealth, but that's vacuously true because such societies don't have any wealth in the traditional sense. However things like status and access to reproductive opportunities were very non-egalitarian. I recall reading studies that found that only about 40% of men in hunter gatherer societies produced descendants (due to widespread polygamy that increased reproductive opportunities to a select few men, while depriving it of many others), as compared to 70-80% in agriculturalist societies. Inequalities do exists, it just manifests itself differently because these societies don't have wealth in the way we usually recognize it.

neaden 8y ago

We lose knowledge, diversity, skills, and a link to our past. I understand why the people are leaving, I would probably make the same choice. But we shouldn't also act like there isn't a loss.

asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
I guess whether this is a big problem depends on what you value. From some perspectives, knowledge and skills are not ends unto themselves, but only have utility in a specific context. For example, I care not that the skill of carving elephant ivory is basically a lost art at this point. Diversity? I can't say that the presence of nomads in the desert was really moving the needle on that very much in my daily life. A link to our past? Perhaps, but, as GP pointed out, only in the sense of a living museum exhibit. It is not like many people actually go to encounter this link personally, and in any case, even if they did, these are people. I admit a certain amount of wistful nostalgia, but I personally don't consider nostalgia to be the same thing as sadness. Nostalgia is most often a delusion, not a genuine recollection of the good old days.
- pm90 8y ago
  You're taking a very utilitarian view of these things. Nothing wrong with that. But many people enjoy knowing that there are still those who stick by their old ways without there being any tangible benefit to themselves or the rest of society.
rleigh 8y ago
While this is true, this process has also happened in our own culture, albeit a few hundred years ago. In the UK the industrial revolution and agricultural mechanisation caused a huge migration from the countryside to the cities. Today, you can still see plenty of ruins of old settlements, cottages, churches, etc. which were abandoned and left to decay. In many parts of Scotland, you can walk to shielings, which were housing for herdsmen during the summer months. They would migrate there with their cattle and stay up in the hills, and migrate back down during winter when it was too inhospitable. They would have had a fairly boring and miserable existence. Living in relative isolation with no company but the animals, all food having to be brought in, and then long walks to the towns and cities to sell them. Today, cattle are kept in fields, fed with grass and cattle feed, and moved around in lorries. While there's a certain romanticism for the migratory lifestyle, and it might even be novel and interesting for a short while, I don't think the drudgery in the long term is something I could tolerate.

ozmbie 8y ago

I think the larger concern people have with stories like this, is that it’s one part of all human culture becoming homogenized. And we feel something is lost when that happens. As Terence McKenna put it: “All culture is being destroyed, all culture is being sold down the river by the sorts of people who want to turn the entire planet into an international airport arrival concourse”

cyberpunk0 8y ago
Nail on the head. Nice McKenna quote
justin 8y ago
Easy for Terence McKenna to say when he isn’t the one living the life of a nomad, or any other culture where those in it want to transition to a modern lifestyle. “The sorts of people who want to turn the entire planet into an international airport arrival concourse” are largely the entire planet.
- cyberpunk0 8y ago
  That is an anecdotal opinion not based in much reality. And if the majority of the world really does wish to turn this planet into a mass, hollow consumerist engine to make rich people richer then get me off of it because we really should be killed by a meteor.

adrianN 8y ago

I wonder whether people would be willing to pay for "museum nomads" to live a traditional life, like the museum Fremen in Dune.