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That isn’t remotely how it works.

by rhexs 8y ago

ItsMe000001 8y ago
What exactly do you mean? The specific scenario I described in very, very broad terms was from a lecture by Eric S. Lander about a specific bacterial cell. If you have an issue with the general description I don't understand it, since you don't say anything at all apart from some snide comment that doesn't even make sense to me. At the very least I would expect someone who bothers to reply because they disagree to say what exactly it is they disagree with, and also be specific about it. While I'm a CS person I have a broad background in life sciences too.
- pcnix 8y ago
  If the bugs were annoying enough that they'd prevent proper functioning of the system, they'd be fixed. If the current users are able to get some utility out of the system with all the bugs, then you can be rest assured so will the hackers.
galeaspablo 8y ago
Itsme, I believe the disagreement is not with your statement about biology, but with its comparison with software systems.
- ItsMe000001 8y ago
  The joke was not about software specifically, but about the whole system, everything. But even software feels like evolutionary forces are at work - when you work on huge systems developed and added-to over years, sometimes decades, often by new people (lots of churn, contractors), the "design" is less and less visible and it becomes a mess, the role of deciding whether a new "gene" (feature/big fix) works is taken by the (also messy) huge test suite and since nobody understands the whole system any more people code to pass those tests. I made the comparison looking back at when I once was part of those adding to a huge existing piece of software without understanding (it had become impossible, the only objective was to have the tests pass, or even just most of them). When I later also took biology classes (and org. chem., biochem., physiology etc etc) I could not help but see parallels - I say parallels, not transferring the models over! - to how we develop huge systems, be it software, hardware or the combination of both. No single human understands even a significant part of them any more. "Deliberate design" is not the sole force working on those systems any more.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    I'd add that most software systems compete on the market, which is as close to direct evolutionary process as you can get in modern environment. And that process has a fitness function that's quite misaligned with what a designer wants at any step of the process.

That isn’t remotely how it works.

by rhexs 8y ago

That isn’t remotely how it works.

What exactly do you mean? The specific scenario I described in very, very broad terms was from a lecture by Eric S. Lander about a specific bacterial cell. If you have an issue with the general description I don't understand it, since you don't say anything at all apart from some snide comment that doesn't even make sense to me. At the very least I would expect someone who bothers to reply because they disagree to say what exactly it is they disagree with, and also be specific about it. While I'm a CS person I have a broad background in life sciences too.

pcnix 8y ago
If the bugs were annoying enough that they'd prevent proper functioning of the system, they'd be fixed. If the current users are able to get some utility out of the system with all the bugs, then you can be rest assured so will the hackers.

galeaspablo 8y ago

Itsme, I believe the disagreement is not with your statement about biology, but with its comparison with software systems.

ItsMe000001 8y ago
The joke was not about software specifically, but about the whole system, everything. But even software feels like evolutionary forces are at work - when you work on huge systems developed and added-to over years, sometimes decades, often by new people (lots of churn, contractors), the "design" is less and less visible and it becomes a mess, the role of deciding whether a new "gene" (feature/big fix) works is taken by the (also messy) huge test suite and since nobody understands the whole system any more people code to pass those tests. I made the comparison looking back at when I once was part of those adding to a huge existing piece of software without understanding (it had become impossible, the only objective was to have the tests pass, or even just most of them). When I later also took biology classes (and org. chem., biochem., physiology etc etc) I could not help but see parallels - I say parallels, not transferring the models over! - to how we develop huge systems, be it software, hardware or the combination of both. No single human understands even a significant part of them any more. "Deliberate design" is not the sole force working on those systems any more.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  I'd add that most software systems compete on the market, which is as close to direct evolutionary process as you can get in modern environment. And that process has a fitness function that's quite misaligned with what a designer wants at any step of the process.