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That's a good point about Amazon, I added it. Amazon has an incredible amount of data about my purchase history. I'll also add Amex, Visa, and MasterCard. Netf

That's a good point about Amazon, I added it. Amazon has an incredible amount of data about my purchase history. I'll also add Amex, Visa, and MasterCard. Netflix - I am conflicted between the choice of giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. How about I actively go research for a particular movie on my own? Why do I need AI telling me what to watch. Word of mouth is a fantastic way to get recommendations. On the other hand, I would have not found interesting music on Spotify if it wasn't for their recommendation system / radio.

ThrustVectoring 8y ago
Note that Netflix does not just use your data for making suggestions, but also for optimizing the content they create and buy.
- ConceptJunkie 8y ago
  This would be relevant if Netflix's suggestions were any better than picking things at random. At least that's my experience.
pmiller2 8y ago
No matter what you do, even if you don’t rate anything, Netflix knows what you watch, and whether you finished it. I would bet that information alone is almost as strong a signal as what you rate.
- werber 8y ago
  I'd bet that is a much greater of indicator of your real taste (and what they can get you to binge) vs. the taste you want people to perceive you as having via ranking
  - WalterSear 8y ago
    Perhaps even better than what you think you like yourself.
    - Alterlife 8y ago
      What you would like to watch. What you actually watch. This is why I hate YouTube recommendations. It feeds my monkey brain.
      - WalterSear 8y ago
        I hate them because they are clearly trying to feed someone else's monkey brain.
      - kennxfl 8y ago
        If you know mechanics a company is using to extract your attention, it's your responsibility to account for that when using their services. Except for kids, and there are laws against advertising directly to them. It's a lost cause fighting advertising.
  - nathan_long 8y ago
    > your real taste (and what they can get you to binge) vs. the taste you want people to perceive you as having via ranking You make this sound like a question of honesty vs pretense, but "what they can get you to binge" reveals a different set of motives. It's sometimes a question of self-control. I want to be healthy. I also want to eat junk food. What do I "really" want? Imagine an online grocery store which noticed they could profit more by hiding healthy options from me and selling me more junk. Would their AI be acting according to my "real taste"? In a sense, yes. Would it be serving my best interests? No. If Netflix can entice someone to binge watch TV all weekend, does that mean that's what they "really" wanted? Every AI serves someone's interests. It's important to ask whose. And if you want to make an AI that truly serves your users (rather than exploiting them), give them explicit control. Stop with this "we know you better than you know yourself" nonsense. Let them say things like, "yes, I watched that movie / bought that candy, but I wish I hadn't. Please don't use that for future recommendations."
cgriswald 8y ago
> Apple is an exception and I hope they continue to charge premium for their products. > Netflix - I am conflicted between the choice of giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. I'm confused by this conflict. Netflix uses your personal data to help you get more out of the service. An argument could be made that they do this because subscribers then tend to remain subscribers for longer; but the counterargument there is that it is because those subscribers are getting more out of their subscriptions. I struggle to see any scenario where recommendations make people who are getting nothing out of the service stick around. Apple uses personal data to make recommendations as well, but these are advertisements, because they are recommending additional products for purchase (and typically the products of third parties for which Apple gets a cut). Is the difference here that Apple asks before they use this information? > giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. The act of watching something on Netflix (or even just surfing the app and not watching anything) constitutes giving up your privacy. Netflix now knows (even if it forces itself to forget) something about you. I don't think it is problematic for a company to use this information to improve its services. I don't think the cynical view–that Netflix does it because it keeps subscribers around for longer–really matters here. I can't imagine a scenario where recommendations convince people to stick around who would otherwise need, except in that they provide a better experience. The owner of a cafe I frequent knows many things about me and uses them to provide a better service. She will sometimes have my drink waiting for me because she knows what I drink and when I am going to be there. She knows I am not going to skip out on a bill, so she will make my drink out of order and let me pay later when the line has died. Etc. etc. I don't see Netflix recommendations as a whole lot different than that; just less personal. I think sharing personal information with businesses parallels sharing information with individuals. If I tell a friend something and he starts blabbing it all over time (for free or for pay) or tries to use it against me somehow, we're going to have a problem. The same with Netflix. If they try to use it to manipulate me or they start selling it to third parties: problem. I want to control what I share, with who.

ThrustVectoring 8y ago

Note that Netflix does not just use your data for making suggestions, but also for optimizing the content they create and buy.

ConceptJunkie 8y ago
This would be relevant if Netflix's suggestions were any better than picking things at random. At least that's my experience.

pmiller2 8y ago

No matter what you do, even if you don’t rate anything, Netflix knows what you watch, and whether you finished it. I would bet that information alone is almost as strong a signal as what you rate.

werber 8y ago
I'd bet that is a much greater of indicator of your real taste (and what they can get you to binge) vs. the taste you want people to perceive you as having via ranking
- WalterSear 8y ago
  Perhaps even better than what you think you like yourself.
  - Alterlife 8y ago
    What you would like to watch. What you actually watch. This is why I hate YouTube recommendations. It feeds my monkey brain.
    - WalterSear 8y ago
      I hate them because they are clearly trying to feed someone else's monkey brain.
    - kennxfl 8y ago
      If you know mechanics a company is using to extract your attention, it's your responsibility to account for that when using their services. Except for kids, and there are laws against advertising directly to them. It's a lost cause fighting advertising.
- nathan_long 8y ago
  > your real taste (and what they can get you to binge) vs. the taste you want people to perceive you as having via ranking You make this sound like a question of honesty vs pretense, but "what they can get you to binge" reveals a different set of motives. It's sometimes a question of self-control. I want to be healthy. I also want to eat junk food. What do I "really" want? Imagine an online grocery store which noticed they could profit more by hiding healthy options from me and selling me more junk. Would their AI be acting according to my "real taste"? In a sense, yes. Would it be serving my best interests? No. If Netflix can entice someone to binge watch TV all weekend, does that mean that's what they "really" wanted? Every AI serves someone's interests. It's important to ask whose. And if you want to make an AI that truly serves your users (rather than exploiting them), give them explicit control. Stop with this "we know you better than you know yourself" nonsense. Let them say things like, "yes, I watched that movie / bought that candy, but I wish I hadn't. Please don't use that for future recommendations."

cgriswald 8y ago

> Apple is an exception and I hope they continue to charge premium for their products. > Netflix - I am conflicted between the choice of giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. I'm confused by this conflict. Netflix uses your personal data to help you get more out of the service. An argument could be made that they do this because subscribers then tend to remain subscribers for longer; but the counterargument there is that it is because those subscribers are getting more out of their subscriptions. I struggle to see any scenario where recommendations make people who are getting nothing out of the service stick around. Apple uses personal data to make recommendations as well, but these are advertisements, because they are recommending additional products for purchase (and typically the products of third parties for which Apple gets a cut). Is the difference here that Apple asks before they use this information? > giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. The act of watching something on Netflix (or even just surfing the app and not watching anything) constitutes giving up your privacy. Netflix now knows (even if it forces itself to forget) something about you. I don't think it is problematic for a company to use this information to improve its services. I don't think the cynical view–that Netflix does it because it keeps subscribers around for longer–really matters here. I can't imagine a scenario where recommendations convince people to stick around who would otherwise need, except in that they provide a better experience. The owner of a cafe I frequent knows many things about me and uses them to provide a better service. She will sometimes have my drink waiting for me because she knows what I drink and when I am going to be there. She knows I am not going to skip out on a bill, so she will make my drink out of order and let me pay later when the line has died. Etc. etc. I don't see Netflix recommendations as a whole lot different than that; just less personal. I think sharing personal information with businesses parallels sharing information with individuals. If I tell a friend something and he starts blabbing it all over time (for free or for pay) or tries to use it against me somehow, we're going to have a problem. The same with Netflix. If they try to use it to manipulate me or they start selling it to third parties: problem. I want to control what I share, with who.