5 ms·

You left off Amazon from the “can’t trust” list. IMO they would be there even if they hadn’t recently started expanding into advertising, because their business

You left off Amazon from the “can’t trust” list. IMO they would be there even if they hadn’t recently started expanding into advertising, because their business model seems to be to expand existing operations until there’s a critical mass, then slither off into an adjacent sector and repeat. And, just to round out the list, Netflix looks like one that’s actually trustworthy. They don’t advertise, and the info they have on me is pretty limited, anyway.

fermienrico 8y ago
That's a good point about Amazon, I added it. Amazon has an incredible amount of data about my purchase history. I'll also add Amex, Visa, and MasterCard. Netflix - I am conflicted between the choice of giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. How about I actively go research for a particular movie on my own? Why do I need AI telling me what to watch. Word of mouth is a fantastic way to get recommendations. On the other hand, I would have not found interesting music on Spotify if it wasn't for their recommendation system / radio.
- ThrustVectoring 8y ago
  Note that Netflix does not just use your data for making suggestions, but also for optimizing the content they create and buy.
  - ConceptJunkie 8y ago
    This would be relevant if Netflix's suggestions were any better than picking things at random. At least that's my experience.
- pmiller2 8y ago
  No matter what you do, even if you don’t rate anything, Netflix knows what you watch, and whether you finished it. I would bet that information alone is almost as strong a signal as what you rate.
  - werber 8y ago
    I'd bet that is a much greater of indicator of your real taste (and what they can get you to binge) vs. the taste you want people to perceive you as having via ranking
    - WalterSear 8y ago
      Perhaps even better than what you think you like yourself.
      - Alterlife 8y ago
        What you would like to watch. What you actually watch. This is why I hate YouTube recommendations. It feeds my monkey brain.
        WalterSear 8y ago
        I hate them because they are clearly trying to feed someone else's monkey brain.
        kennxfl 8y ago
        If you know mechanics a company is using to extract your attention, it's your responsibility to account for that when using their services. Except for kids, and there are laws against advertising directly to them. It's a lost cause fighting advertising.
    - nathan_long 8y ago
      > your real taste (and what they can get you to binge) vs. the taste you want people to perceive you as having via ranking You make this sound like a question of honesty vs pretense, but "what they can get you to binge" reveals a different set of motives. It's sometimes a question of self-control. I want to be healthy. I also want to eat junk food. What do I "really" want? Imagine an online grocery store which noticed they could profit more by hiding healthy options from me and selling me more junk. Would their AI be acting according to my "real taste"? In a sense, yes. Would it be serving my best interests? No. If Netflix can entice someone to binge watch TV all weekend, does that mean that's what they "really" wanted? Every AI serves someone's interests. It's important to ask whose. And if you want to make an AI that truly serves your users (rather than exploiting them), give them explicit control. Stop with this "we know you better than you know yourself" nonsense. Let them say things like, "yes, I watched that movie / bought that candy, but I wish I hadn't. Please don't use that for future recommendations."
- cgriswald 8y ago
  > Apple is an exception and I hope they continue to charge premium for their products. > Netflix - I am conflicted between the choice of giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. I'm confused by this conflict. Netflix uses your personal data to help you get more out of the service. An argument could be made that they do this because subscribers then tend to remain subscribers for longer; but the counterargument there is that it is because those subscribers are getting more out of their subscriptions. I struggle to see any scenario where recommendations make people who are getting nothing out of the service stick around. Apple uses personal data to make recommendations as well, but these are advertisements, because they are recommending additional products for purchase (and typically the products of third parties for which Apple gets a cut). Is the difference here that Apple asks before they use this information? > giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. The act of watching something on Netflix (or even just surfing the app and not watching anything) constitutes giving up your privacy. Netflix now knows (even if it forces itself to forget) something about you. I don't think it is problematic for a company to use this information to improve its services. I don't think the cynical view–that Netflix does it because it keeps subscribers around for longer–really matters here. I can't imagine a scenario where recommendations convince people to stick around who would otherwise need, except in that they provide a better experience. The owner of a cafe I frequent knows many things about me and uses them to provide a better service. She will sometimes have my drink waiting for me because she knows what I drink and when I am going to be there. She knows I am not going to skip out on a bill, so she will make my drink out of order and let me pay later when the line has died. Etc. etc. I don't see Netflix recommendations as a whole lot different than that; just less personal. I think sharing personal information with businesses parallels sharing information with individuals. If I tell a friend something and he starts blabbing it all over time (for free or for pay) or tries to use it against me somehow, we're going to have a problem. The same with Netflix. If they try to use it to manipulate me or they start selling it to third parties: problem. I want to control what I share, with who.
downrightmike 8y ago
There are US laws against sharing out what shows people are watching. So kinda nips that model in the bud.
- pmiller2 8y ago
  Laws are irrelevant when you’re a multi-billion dollar corporation with lobbyists. Besides, they don’t need to, when they can just sell targetted advertising.
lotsofpulp 8y ago
There are enormous amounts of product placement in Netflix's content.
- wil421 8y ago
  Most people don’t get mad when they see a coke bottle or an Apple product placed in a scene of a movie or tv show. People do get mad when they are trying to watch TV and they keep being forced to watch a commercial.
  - gricardo99 8y ago
    I couldn't agree more. The new age of "cloud DVRs" is infuriating. I used to have a DVR that worked fine, I could skip over whatever I wanted. Now with the "cloud DVRs" we're back to being forced into watching commercials.
    - wil421 8y ago
      Well I guess I’ll notice the pain when I use DirecTV Now Cloud DVR. I noticed a few years ago Comcast started to even restrict On Demand content. They forced users to watch ads and even disabled fast forward!
  - move-on-by 8y ago
    Product placements also aren't targeted beyond the general target audience of the show. Privacy issues are at the heart of targeted ads. Advertisement mediums that cannot dynamically target the individuals are at less risk of violating your privacy. Of course now advertisers are looking to ultrasonic beacons to get around the lack of targeting and data collection, but for the most part product placements aren't the malicious and disruptive advertisements we've become victims of.
  - kbenson 8y ago
    General advertising is not a problem. Individually targeted advertising is. General advertising includes the sign on the door or exterior of the brick and mirter storefront, as well as billboards, magazine/newspaper ads, and product placement in media. It ranges from almost entirely informative (on the storefront) to annoying and off-putting (some billboards, poorly done product placement). This advertising is passive. Individually targeted ads use extra information about the individual to cater the ad, and thus have an incentive to collect this information. This advertising is active, in that it is bidirectional. Passive advertising not only still provides some benefit for much less harm, it's also hard to distinguish from purely informational materials in some cases. It's worth distinguishing these to prevent bike-shedding over details that can be safely ignored when we formulate our arguments accurately. Edit: s/targeted/individually targeted/ to make it more specific and accurate. That is the theme of the comment, after all...
joelx 8y ago
China and Russia have major disinformation campaigns running in the United States and around the world. These campaigns have been heavily documented by news organizations and American defense agencies. A major branch of Russia and China's attack is the ongoing negative PR campaign against tech companies like Facebook, Google, and Amazon. Can these companies improve? Sure. But their infractions are incredibly minor compared to the dictatorships rising in Russia, China, Turkey, etc that are murdering foreign citizens as well as large numbers of their own. They are stealing billions of dollars from their own citizens and taking the world down a terrifying path. Please reconsider the easy targets of tech companies and have the courage to face true evil in these dictatorships.

fermienrico 8y ago

That's a good point about Amazon, I added it. Amazon has an incredible amount of data about my purchase history. I'll also add Amex, Visa, and MasterCard. Netflix - I am conflicted between the choice of giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. How about I actively go research for a particular movie on my own? Why do I need AI telling me what to watch. Word of mouth is a fantastic way to get recommendations. On the other hand, I would have not found interesting music on Spotify if it wasn't for their recommendation system / radio.

ThrustVectoring 8y ago
Note that Netflix does not just use your data for making suggestions, but also for optimizing the content they create and buy.
- ConceptJunkie 8y ago
  This would be relevant if Netflix's suggestions were any better than picking things at random. At least that's my experience.
pmiller2 8y ago
No matter what you do, even if you don’t rate anything, Netflix knows what you watch, and whether you finished it. I would bet that information alone is almost as strong a signal as what you rate.
- werber 8y ago
  I'd bet that is a much greater of indicator of your real taste (and what they can get you to binge) vs. the taste you want people to perceive you as having via ranking
  - WalterSear 8y ago
    Perhaps even better than what you think you like yourself.
    - Alterlife 8y ago
      What you would like to watch. What you actually watch. This is why I hate YouTube recommendations. It feeds my monkey brain.
      - WalterSear 8y ago
        I hate them because they are clearly trying to feed someone else's monkey brain.
      - kennxfl 8y ago
        If you know mechanics a company is using to extract your attention, it's your responsibility to account for that when using their services. Except for kids, and there are laws against advertising directly to them. It's a lost cause fighting advertising.
  - nathan_long 8y ago
    > your real taste (and what they can get you to binge) vs. the taste you want people to perceive you as having via ranking You make this sound like a question of honesty vs pretense, but "what they can get you to binge" reveals a different set of motives. It's sometimes a question of self-control. I want to be healthy. I also want to eat junk food. What do I "really" want? Imagine an online grocery store which noticed they could profit more by hiding healthy options from me and selling me more junk. Would their AI be acting according to my "real taste"? In a sense, yes. Would it be serving my best interests? No. If Netflix can entice someone to binge watch TV all weekend, does that mean that's what they "really" wanted? Every AI serves someone's interests. It's important to ask whose. And if you want to make an AI that truly serves your users (rather than exploiting them), give them explicit control. Stop with this "we know you better than you know yourself" nonsense. Let them say things like, "yes, I watched that movie / bought that candy, but I wish I hadn't. Please don't use that for future recommendations."
cgriswald 8y ago
> Apple is an exception and I hope they continue to charge premium for their products. > Netflix - I am conflicted between the choice of giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. I'm confused by this conflict. Netflix uses your personal data to help you get more out of the service. An argument could be made that they do this because subscribers then tend to remain subscribers for longer; but the counterargument there is that it is because those subscribers are getting more out of their subscriptions. I struggle to see any scenario where recommendations make people who are getting nothing out of the service stick around. Apple uses personal data to make recommendations as well, but these are advertisements, because they are recommending additional products for purchase (and typically the products of third parties for which Apple gets a cut). Is the difference here that Apple asks before they use this information? > giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. The act of watching something on Netflix (or even just surfing the app and not watching anything) constitutes giving up your privacy. Netflix now knows (even if it forces itself to forget) something about you. I don't think it is problematic for a company to use this information to improve its services. I don't think the cynical view–that Netflix does it because it keeps subscribers around for longer–really matters here. I can't imagine a scenario where recommendations convince people to stick around who would otherwise need, except in that they provide a better experience. The owner of a cafe I frequent knows many things about me and uses them to provide a better service. She will sometimes have my drink waiting for me because she knows what I drink and when I am going to be there. She knows I am not going to skip out on a bill, so she will make my drink out of order and let me pay later when the line has died. Etc. etc. I don't see Netflix recommendations as a whole lot different than that; just less personal. I think sharing personal information with businesses parallels sharing information with individuals. If I tell a friend something and he starts blabbing it all over time (for free or for pay) or tries to use it against me somehow, we're going to have a problem. The same with Netflix. If they try to use it to manipulate me or they start selling it to third parties: problem. I want to control what I share, with who.

downrightmike 8y ago

There are US laws against sharing out what shows people are watching. So kinda nips that model in the bud.

pmiller2 8y ago
Laws are irrelevant when you’re a multi-billion dollar corporation with lobbyists. Besides, they don’t need to, when they can just sell targetted advertising.

lotsofpulp 8y ago

There are enormous amounts of product placement in Netflix's content.

wil421 8y ago
Most people don’t get mad when they see a coke bottle or an Apple product placed in a scene of a movie or tv show. People do get mad when they are trying to watch TV and they keep being forced to watch a commercial.
- gricardo99 8y ago
  I couldn't agree more. The new age of "cloud DVRs" is infuriating. I used to have a DVR that worked fine, I could skip over whatever I wanted. Now with the "cloud DVRs" we're back to being forced into watching commercials.
  - wil421 8y ago
    Well I guess I’ll notice the pain when I use DirecTV Now Cloud DVR. I noticed a few years ago Comcast started to even restrict On Demand content. They forced users to watch ads and even disabled fast forward!
- move-on-by 8y ago
  Product placements also aren't targeted beyond the general target audience of the show. Privacy issues are at the heart of targeted ads. Advertisement mediums that cannot dynamically target the individuals are at less risk of violating your privacy. Of course now advertisers are looking to ultrasonic beacons to get around the lack of targeting and data collection, but for the most part product placements aren't the malicious and disruptive advertisements we've become victims of.
- kbenson 8y ago
  General advertising is not a problem. Individually targeted advertising is. General advertising includes the sign on the door or exterior of the brick and mirter storefront, as well as billboards, magazine/newspaper ads, and product placement in media. It ranges from almost entirely informative (on the storefront) to annoying and off-putting (some billboards, poorly done product placement). This advertising is passive. Individually targeted ads use extra information about the individual to cater the ad, and thus have an incentive to collect this information. This advertising is active, in that it is bidirectional. Passive advertising not only still provides some benefit for much less harm, it's also hard to distinguish from purely informational materials in some cases. It's worth distinguishing these to prevent bike-shedding over details that can be safely ignored when we formulate our arguments accurately. Edit: s/targeted/individually targeted/ to make it more specific and accurate. That is the theme of the comment, after all...

joelx 8y ago

China and Russia have major disinformation campaigns running in the United States and around the world. These campaigns have been heavily documented by news organizations and American defense agencies. A major branch of Russia and China's attack is the ongoing negative PR campaign against tech companies like Facebook, Google, and Amazon. Can these companies improve? Sure. But their infractions are incredibly minor compared to the dictatorships rising in Russia, China, Turkey, etc that are murdering foreign citizens as well as large numbers of their own. They are stealing billions of dollars from their own citizens and taking the world down a terrifying path. Please reconsider the easy targets of tech companies and have the courage to face true evil in these dictatorships.