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The answer is, we don't know, Apple is a much more secretive company with far fewer leaks. But Apple does tens of billions in revenue a year in China, and it's

The answer is, we don't know, Apple is a much more secretive company with far fewer leaks. But Apple does tens of billions in revenue a year in China, and it's entire edifice is built on Chinese manufacturing, and so there is the potential for tremendous leverage by Chinese authorities. If China asked Apple to provide a list of accounts which downloaded VPNs in Xinjiang, are you 100% confident they wouldn't if threatened with sanctions? Perhaps it's even via a plausibly deniable mechanism, like buying keyword targeting on the Chinese app store, and phishing people to fraudulent apps in a 'sting', while you look at other way. There's enough money involved that anyone should seriously question how strong an executive's ethics can be if they've got a $1 trillion market cap to defend. I'm not saying any company is superior to the other, I'm saying the allure of tens of billions of dollars is a powerful motivator for weakening of ethics, and I wouldn't even trust Edward Snowden's ethics if tens of billions was on the line.

creaghpatr 8y ago
I get that you are trying to sow doubt, but consider: >The memo, authored by a Google engineer who was asked to work on the project, disclosed that the search system, codenamed Dragonfly, would require users to log in to perform searches, track their location — and share the resulting history with a Chinese partner who would have “unilateral access” to the data. https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-revealing-plans-to-closely-track-search-users-in-china/ https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-r... When you discover a memo like that for Apple, feel free to share it with us.
- cromwellian 8y ago
  We haven't discovered memos like this from Microsoft either, but we know Microsoft works with governments. AT&T installed backdoors for governments, and no memo was leaked. Google is a much more leaky organization, with vocal employees, and not very good at internal compartmentalization, and that's why you know about these things. We used to consider a bug if an employee can't 'see everything' everyone else is working on. Is lack of whistle blowers elsewhere a sign that there's no whistles to blow, or a sign that oppressive security and compartmentalized security at other firms makes it hard for the public to find out? My point is, transparency is good, and that more secrecy doesn't buy you trust. That's why people value open source and used to pretty much rail against closed source HW on HN. Now we seem to be an in era where closed source and locked down DRM app stores that block side loading are accepted.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  Apple's ethical lapses have all been on the supply-side. Rare-earth mining, contributing to serious environmental problems in China: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/business/global/30rare.html?pagewanted=all https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/business/global/30rare.ht... https://www.cnet.com/news/digging-for-rare-earths-the-mines-where-iphones-are-born/ https://www.cnet.com/news/digging-for-rare-earths-the-mines-... (Apple stopped mining rare-earth minerals in China in 2017, 7 years after the NYTimes story broke.) Child labor, with teenagers working 11-hour days to assemble your iPhone X: https://nypost.com/2017/11/21/apple-has-been-using-teen-labor-to-assemble-the-iphone-x/ https://nypost.com/2017/11/21/apple-has-been-using-teen-labo... Child-labor in the mining of rare-earths: http://fortune.com/2017/03/03/apple-cobalt-child-labor/ http://fortune.com/2017/03/03/apple-cobalt-child-labor/
  - djrogers 8y ago
    These are not Apple’s ethical lapses - they are the failure of an entire industry. An industry, it’s worth noting, that Apple has been extremely transparent about, and has worked to fix. Also worth noting that Apple’s suppliers have improved dramatically in recent years - something that can’t be said about most other manufacturers.
- kartickv 8y ago
  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh... Imagine the outrage if Google stored user data in a datacenter run by a company controlled by the Chinese government. Apple pulled an amazing PR coup in convincing us that they somehow respect privacy more than Google. Not to mention the iCloud celebrity photo leak caused by not using 2FA to protect user data; only to prevent fraudulent credit card transactions. Maybe this is more a question of not being as skilled at cloud services than something deliberate, but it makes no difference to users whose data leaks.

creaghpatr 8y ago

I get that you are trying to sow doubt, but consider: >The memo, authored by a Google engineer who was asked to work on the project, disclosed that the search system, codenamed Dragonfly, would require users to log in to perform searches, track their location — and share the resulting history with a Chinese partner who would have “unilateral access” to the data. https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-revealing-plans-to-closely-track-search-users-in-china/ https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-r... When you discover a memo like that for Apple, feel free to share it with us.

cromwellian 8y ago
We haven't discovered memos like this from Microsoft either, but we know Microsoft works with governments. AT&T installed backdoors for governments, and no memo was leaked. Google is a much more leaky organization, with vocal employees, and not very good at internal compartmentalization, and that's why you know about these things. We used to consider a bug if an employee can't 'see everything' everyone else is working on. Is lack of whistle blowers elsewhere a sign that there's no whistles to blow, or a sign that oppressive security and compartmentalized security at other firms makes it hard for the public to find out? My point is, transparency is good, and that more secrecy doesn't buy you trust. That's why people value open source and used to pretty much rail against closed source HW on HN. Now we seem to be an in era where closed source and locked down DRM app stores that block side loading are accepted.
nostrademons 8y ago
Apple's ethical lapses have all been on the supply-side. Rare-earth mining, contributing to serious environmental problems in China: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/business/global/30rare.html?pagewanted=all https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/business/global/30rare.ht... https://www.cnet.com/news/digging-for-rare-earths-the-mines-where-iphones-are-born/ https://www.cnet.com/news/digging-for-rare-earths-the-mines-... (Apple stopped mining rare-earth minerals in China in 2017, 7 years after the NYTimes story broke.) Child labor, with teenagers working 11-hour days to assemble your iPhone X: https://nypost.com/2017/11/21/apple-has-been-using-teen-labor-to-assemble-the-iphone-x/ https://nypost.com/2017/11/21/apple-has-been-using-teen-labo... Child-labor in the mining of rare-earths: http://fortune.com/2017/03/03/apple-cobalt-child-labor/ http://fortune.com/2017/03/03/apple-cobalt-child-labor/
- djrogers 8y ago
  These are not Apple’s ethical lapses - they are the failure of an entire industry. An industry, it’s worth noting, that Apple has been extremely transparent about, and has worked to fix. Also worth noting that Apple’s suppliers have improved dramatically in recent years - something that can’t be said about most other manufacturers.
kartickv 8y ago
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh... Imagine the outrage if Google stored user data in a datacenter run by a company controlled by the Chinese government. Apple pulled an amazing PR coup in convincing us that they somehow respect privacy more than Google. Not to mention the iCloud celebrity photo leak caused by not using 2FA to protect user data; only to prevent fraudulent credit card transactions. Maybe this is more a question of not being as skilled at cloud services than something deliberate, but it makes no difference to users whose data leaks.