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The censorship aspect is a red herring. Google is giving the government the infrastructure to identify candidates for "re-education" via their Google searches.

The censorship aspect is a red herring. Google is giving the government the infrastructure to identify candidates for "re-education" via their Google searches. Is Apple funneling dissidents to the government via their app store?

cromwellian 8y ago
The answer is, we don't know, Apple is a much more secretive company with far fewer leaks. But Apple does tens of billions in revenue a year in China, and it's entire edifice is built on Chinese manufacturing, and so there is the potential for tremendous leverage by Chinese authorities. If China asked Apple to provide a list of accounts which downloaded VPNs in Xinjiang, are you 100% confident they wouldn't if threatened with sanctions? Perhaps it's even via a plausibly deniable mechanism, like buying keyword targeting on the Chinese app store, and phishing people to fraudulent apps in a 'sting', while you look at other way. There's enough money involved that anyone should seriously question how strong an executive's ethics can be if they've got a $1 trillion market cap to defend. I'm not saying any company is superior to the other, I'm saying the allure of tens of billions of dollars is a powerful motivator for weakening of ethics, and I wouldn't even trust Edward Snowden's ethics if tens of billions was on the line.
- creaghpatr 8y ago
  I get that you are trying to sow doubt, but consider: >The memo, authored by a Google engineer who was asked to work on the project, disclosed that the search system, codenamed Dragonfly, would require users to log in to perform searches, track their location — and share the resulting history with a Chinese partner who would have “unilateral access” to the data. https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-revealing-plans-to-closely-track-search-users-in-china/ https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-r... When you discover a memo like that for Apple, feel free to share it with us.
  - cromwellian 8y ago
    We haven't discovered memos like this from Microsoft either, but we know Microsoft works with governments. AT&T installed backdoors for governments, and no memo was leaked. Google is a much more leaky organization, with vocal employees, and not very good at internal compartmentalization, and that's why you know about these things. We used to consider a bug if an employee can't 'see everything' everyone else is working on. Is lack of whistle blowers elsewhere a sign that there's no whistles to blow, or a sign that oppressive security and compartmentalized security at other firms makes it hard for the public to find out? My point is, transparency is good, and that more secrecy doesn't buy you trust. That's why people value open source and used to pretty much rail against closed source HW on HN. Now we seem to be an in era where closed source and locked down DRM app stores that block side loading are accepted.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    Apple's ethical lapses have all been on the supply-side. Rare-earth mining, contributing to serious environmental problems in China: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/business/global/30rare.html?pagewanted=all https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/business/global/30rare.ht... https://www.cnet.com/news/digging-for-rare-earths-the-mines-where-iphones-are-born/ https://www.cnet.com/news/digging-for-rare-earths-the-mines-... (Apple stopped mining rare-earth minerals in China in 2017, 7 years after the NYTimes story broke.) Child labor, with teenagers working 11-hour days to assemble your iPhone X: https://nypost.com/2017/11/21/apple-has-been-using-teen-labor-to-assemble-the-iphone-x/ https://nypost.com/2017/11/21/apple-has-been-using-teen-labo... Child-labor in the mining of rare-earths: http://fortune.com/2017/03/03/apple-cobalt-child-labor/ http://fortune.com/2017/03/03/apple-cobalt-child-labor/
    - djrogers 8y ago
      These are not Apple’s ethical lapses - they are the failure of an entire industry. An industry, it’s worth noting, that Apple has been extremely transparent about, and has worked to fix. Also worth noting that Apple’s suppliers have improved dramatically in recent years - something that can’t be said about most other manufacturers.
  - 8y ago
glenrivard 8y ago
What we know is Apple gave the iCloud data to the China government and removed the VPN software. Versus China government tried to hack Gmail accounts and Google left China and walked from making billions. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/02/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-apple-in-china/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/02/5-things-you-... When Profits Threaten Privacy – 5 Things You Need to Know about ... https://www.ft.com/content/ad42e536-cf36-11e7-b781-794ce08b24dc https://www.ft.com/content/ad42e536-cf36-11e7-b781-794ce08b2... Apple drops hundreds of VPN apps at Beijing's request https://www.androidauthority.com/using-google-fi-in-china-850456/ https://www.androidauthority.com/using-google-fi-in-china-85... Using Project Fi in China: Say goodbye to VPNs - Android Authority
darpa_escapee 8y ago
Apple detects whether a Chinese user uses the Taiwanese flag emoji[1] in order to corrupt its display. Nothing is stopping them from pinging back home when a Chinese citizen says or reads the wrong words. [1] https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/11/apple-china-taiwan-flag/ https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/11/apple-china-taiwan-flag/
- xvector 8y ago
  But they have not hired a team of 300 engineers to notify the government of the use of the emoji. Apple still uses the Secure Enclave in the iPhone in China. Apple still end-to-end encrypts most data sent to iCloud with the Enclave. Google and Apple's products here are so disparate in how they infringe on user privacy that the comparison isn't even warranted.
  - dmitrygr 8y ago
    iCloud data for Chinese users is stored in China on servers owned by a Chinese company. Chinese law requires this and apple complies.
    - xvector 8y ago
      Again, this is irrelevant if the data contained is E2E encrypted by the Secure Enclave.
      - dmitrygr 8y ago
        data in iCloud servers is NOT encrypted. Apple has provided it to law enforcement on request. They are quite open about it.

cromwellian 8y ago

The answer is, we don't know, Apple is a much more secretive company with far fewer leaks. But Apple does tens of billions in revenue a year in China, and it's entire edifice is built on Chinese manufacturing, and so there is the potential for tremendous leverage by Chinese authorities. If China asked Apple to provide a list of accounts which downloaded VPNs in Xinjiang, are you 100% confident they wouldn't if threatened with sanctions? Perhaps it's even via a plausibly deniable mechanism, like buying keyword targeting on the Chinese app store, and phishing people to fraudulent apps in a 'sting', while you look at other way. There's enough money involved that anyone should seriously question how strong an executive's ethics can be if they've got a $1 trillion market cap to defend. I'm not saying any company is superior to the other, I'm saying the allure of tens of billions of dollars is a powerful motivator for weakening of ethics, and I wouldn't even trust Edward Snowden's ethics if tens of billions was on the line.

creaghpatr 8y ago
I get that you are trying to sow doubt, but consider: >The memo, authored by a Google engineer who was asked to work on the project, disclosed that the search system, codenamed Dragonfly, would require users to log in to perform searches, track their location — and share the resulting history with a Chinese partner who would have “unilateral access” to the data. https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-revealing-plans-to-closely-track-search-users-in-china/ https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-r... When you discover a memo like that for Apple, feel free to share it with us.
- cromwellian 8y ago
  We haven't discovered memos like this from Microsoft either, but we know Microsoft works with governments. AT&T installed backdoors for governments, and no memo was leaked. Google is a much more leaky organization, with vocal employees, and not very good at internal compartmentalization, and that's why you know about these things. We used to consider a bug if an employee can't 'see everything' everyone else is working on. Is lack of whistle blowers elsewhere a sign that there's no whistles to blow, or a sign that oppressive security and compartmentalized security at other firms makes it hard for the public to find out? My point is, transparency is good, and that more secrecy doesn't buy you trust. That's why people value open source and used to pretty much rail against closed source HW on HN. Now we seem to be an in era where closed source and locked down DRM app stores that block side loading are accepted.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  Apple's ethical lapses have all been on the supply-side. Rare-earth mining, contributing to serious environmental problems in China: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/business/global/30rare.html?pagewanted=all https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/business/global/30rare.ht... https://www.cnet.com/news/digging-for-rare-earths-the-mines-where-iphones-are-born/ https://www.cnet.com/news/digging-for-rare-earths-the-mines-... (Apple stopped mining rare-earth minerals in China in 2017, 7 years after the NYTimes story broke.) Child labor, with teenagers working 11-hour days to assemble your iPhone X: https://nypost.com/2017/11/21/apple-has-been-using-teen-labor-to-assemble-the-iphone-x/ https://nypost.com/2017/11/21/apple-has-been-using-teen-labo... Child-labor in the mining of rare-earths: http://fortune.com/2017/03/03/apple-cobalt-child-labor/ http://fortune.com/2017/03/03/apple-cobalt-child-labor/
  - djrogers 8y ago
    These are not Apple’s ethical lapses - they are the failure of an entire industry. An industry, it’s worth noting, that Apple has been extremely transparent about, and has worked to fix. Also worth noting that Apple’s suppliers have improved dramatically in recent years - something that can’t be said about most other manufacturers.
- 8y ago

glenrivard 8y ago

What we know is Apple gave the iCloud data to the China government and removed the VPN software. Versus China government tried to hack Gmail accounts and Google left China and walked from making billions. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/02/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-apple-in-china/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/02/5-things-you-... When Profits Threaten Privacy – 5 Things You Need to Know about ... https://www.ft.com/content/ad42e536-cf36-11e7-b781-794ce08b24dc https://www.ft.com/content/ad42e536-cf36-11e7-b781-794ce08b2... Apple drops hundreds of VPN apps at Beijing's request https://www.androidauthority.com/using-google-fi-in-china-850456/ https://www.androidauthority.com/using-google-fi-in-china-85... Using Project Fi in China: Say goodbye to VPNs - Android Authority

darpa_escapee 8y ago

Apple detects whether a Chinese user uses the Taiwanese flag emoji[1] in order to corrupt its display. Nothing is stopping them from pinging back home when a Chinese citizen says or reads the wrong words. [1] https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/11/apple-china-taiwan-flag/ https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/11/apple-china-taiwan-flag/

xvector 8y ago
But they have not hired a team of 300 engineers to notify the government of the use of the emoji. Apple still uses the Secure Enclave in the iPhone in China. Apple still end-to-end encrypts most data sent to iCloud with the Enclave. Google and Apple's products here are so disparate in how they infringe on user privacy that the comparison isn't even warranted.
- dmitrygr 8y ago
  iCloud data for Chinese users is stored in China on servers owned by a Chinese company. Chinese law requires this and apple complies.
  - xvector 8y ago
    Again, this is irrelevant if the data contained is E2E encrypted by the Secure Enclave.
    - dmitrygr 8y ago
      data in iCloud servers is NOT encrypted. Apple has provided it to law enforcement on request. They are quite open about it.