4 ms·

> Nobody making food is wearing gloves or hair nets (aside from the one guy making cheese). That's probably not a requirement, but given the amount of food bein

by elhudy 8y ago

> Nobody making food is wearing gloves or hair nets (aside from the one guy making cheese). That's probably not a requirement, but given the amount of food being made and how bad even minor contamination would be, that surprises me. Do you wear gloves and a hair net when you cook your own food? I've been cooking my own food daily for over 10 years now, and I have yet to experience even a minor contamination. I don't see how bumping the amount of cooked food to feed ~70 people would change this.

ItsMe000001 8y ago
To add to this, end of the 1990s I worked in the kitchen of a camp for disabled adults and children in New Jersey for a summer (as a foreign student). Before that I had occasionally had kitchen duty in the German army, and before that, at about 16 at the end of the 10th grade in East Germany, I worked in a meat processing factory for a few weeks and before that in a brewery, also for a few weeks. As a student I also worked in a chocolate factory for a few weeks. I also know two people who owned or own (good!) restaurants in Germany, one of them a professional cook, one of them only "part time cook" and owner (with a professional cook on staff). Never saw gloves. My experiences in all those places where good: It was clean, always, and I never saw anything that would have me question their methods or (food) results. Nobody ever wore gloves though, as far as I can remember (I certainly didn't). You needed a health certificate from a doctor. I think we had hair nets in either the meat processing or the chocolate factory, or both, don't remember, and in the camp kitchen. But no gloves. I don't think they add any significant benefit. Covering the head may often be beneficial, depending on the concrete setup. You don't want hair in food even if the hair is clean, and you don't wash hair as frequently as hands (especially when preparing food).
vorpalhex 8y ago
The chance of salmonella in a dozen eggs is quite low. The chance of it in 300+ eggs is quite a bit more - even with impeccable personal cleanliness. Likewise, if I got a bit of salmonella in something I made, it would affect me and my wife - which would be unfortunate but, that's it. If a commercial kitchen making food for 73 people gets an egg contaminated with salmonella and then spreads that to all the other dishes it's making... well, that's quite a different problem. I also know that I wash my hands, and I sanitize every cooking surface in my kitchen daily (or more often). A kitchen with 6+ full time cooks and 70 some people helping themselves to snacks is liable to much more tracked in dirt, unwashed hands, and badly washed dishes. One of the things I do is infuse alcohols, often in bulk for gifts. When I do this, my sanitation protocol actually changes - I pre-sanitize every vessel using bleach, and I often times do wear gloves if I'm touching anything directly. Consider this: If you had a small cut on your hand, would you wear gloves before making yourself lunch? What if it was a stranger with a cough making your lunch, would you want them to wear gloves?
- elhudy 8y ago
  >The chance of salmonella in a dozen eggs is quite low. The chance of it in 300+ eggs is quite a bit more - even with impeccable personal cleanliness. Likewise, if I got a bit of salmonella in something I made, it would affect me and my wife - which would be unfortunate but, that's it. Eggs are the only food that fits this narrative, and they are only (very rarely) dangerous if eaten raw. I would be more concerned about eating eggs from a holiday inn breakfast buffet. >I also know that I wash my hands, and I sanitize every cooking surface in my kitchen daily (or more often). I've never sanitized my cooking surface. I was taught to use vinegar as a cleaner and have never had issues (it's not a disinfectant). I haven't even had a cold in three years. >One of the things I do is infuse alcohols, often in bulk for gifts. When I do this, my sanitation protocol actually changes - I pre-sanitize every vessel using bleach, and I often times do wear gloves if I'm touching anything directly. A few of the things I do are brew beer, wine, kombucha, ferment vegetables, etc. I, too, used to use sanitize all of my bottles and containers. I then read The Art of Fermentation and realized that everything I was doing was moot. Lactic acid bacteria and yeasts do an excellent job of preservation, provided you give them a nurturing environment to thrive in. >Consider this: If you had a small cut on your hand, would you wear gloves before making yourself lunch? What if it was a stranger with a cough making your lunch, would you want them to wear gloves? The commune deserves more credit. People who abandon everything to live in a commune take personal interest in caring for one another. You're more likely to pick up something from a stranger with a cough at a restaurant, who didn't call in sick because they're still late on last month's phone bill, than someone at a commune - who could just ask another member to fill in. Keep in mind this is how society was for a long time.
  - vorpalhex 8y ago
    Eggs, chicken, pork, even flour can be contaminated - Chipotle (a popular US fast-ish food chain) had woes upon woes until they finally gave it and started pasteurizing their flour. Dairy and meat are more susceptible of course, but even dry ingredients can come with contamination problems. Vinegar is a decent cleaner. I use it quite a bit myself, but it's not the best choice to clean up after raw meats and some other more aggressive bacteria. You may have a good immune system, and not run into any problems - good for you, I'm glad - but that is not going to be the case for any large group of people. > Lactic acid bacteria and yeasts do an excellent job of preservation Preservation is not sanitation. Yeast will feed off of many things and grow, but it won't typically attack germs or viruses. Those germs will however gladly feed off of the same food you're giving the yeast. This is why aggressively sanitizing any fermenting vessel is so important - you're creating the ideal environments for bacteria to grow and you want to make sure it's only your selected bacteria that are growing. > Keep in mind this is how society was for a long time. That is a myth and falsehood. The work week for the average person going back thousands of years was 60+ hours. There was no vacation or sick leave. Sure, if you had a small cottage industry you might be able to ask a family member to do extra work for a day so you can rest, but for most of history children were pressed into labor at ages 8 - 10. > People who abandon everything to live in a commune take personal interest in caring for one another Then they should practice good sanitation and cleanliness. I'm not saying they shouldn't live in a commune, or that they're bad people - I'm saying they are not correctly practicing what we've learned in 10,000+ years of handling food stuffs for a community. If you care for your friend/neighbor/fellow commune-peer, then take a moment to wear gloves and a hair net so you don't get them sick.

by elhudy 8y ago

ItsMe000001 8y ago

To add to this, end of the 1990s I worked in the kitchen of a camp for disabled adults and children in New Jersey for a summer (as a foreign student). Before that I had occasionally had kitchen duty in the German army, and before that, at about 16 at the end of the 10th grade in East Germany, I worked in a meat processing factory for a few weeks and before that in a brewery, also for a few weeks. As a student I also worked in a chocolate factory for a few weeks. I also know two people who owned or own (good!) restaurants in Germany, one of them a professional cook, one of them only "part time cook" and owner (with a professional cook on staff). Never saw gloves. My experiences in all those places where good: It was clean, always, and I never saw anything that would have me question their methods or (food) results. Nobody ever wore gloves though, as far as I can remember (I certainly didn't). You needed a health certificate from a doctor. I think we had hair nets in either the meat processing or the chocolate factory, or both, don't remember, and in the camp kitchen. But no gloves. I don't think they add any significant benefit. Covering the head may often be beneficial, depending on the concrete setup. You don't want hair in food even if the hair is clean, and you don't wash hair as frequently as hands (especially when preparing food).

vorpalhex 8y ago

The chance of salmonella in a dozen eggs is quite low. The chance of it in 300+ eggs is quite a bit more - even with impeccable personal cleanliness. Likewise, if I got a bit of salmonella in something I made, it would affect me and my wife - which would be unfortunate but, that's it. If a commercial kitchen making food for 73 people gets an egg contaminated with salmonella and then spreads that to all the other dishes it's making... well, that's quite a different problem. I also know that I wash my hands, and I sanitize every cooking surface in my kitchen daily (or more often). A kitchen with 6+ full time cooks and 70 some people helping themselves to snacks is liable to much more tracked in dirt, unwashed hands, and badly washed dishes. One of the things I do is infuse alcohols, often in bulk for gifts. When I do this, my sanitation protocol actually changes - I pre-sanitize every vessel using bleach, and I often times do wear gloves if I'm touching anything directly. Consider this: If you had a small cut on your hand, would you wear gloves before making yourself lunch? What if it was a stranger with a cough making your lunch, would you want them to wear gloves?

elhudy 8y ago
>The chance of salmonella in a dozen eggs is quite low. The chance of it in 300+ eggs is quite a bit more - even with impeccable personal cleanliness. Likewise, if I got a bit of salmonella in something I made, it would affect me and my wife - which would be unfortunate but, that's it. Eggs are the only food that fits this narrative, and they are only (very rarely) dangerous if eaten raw. I would be more concerned about eating eggs from a holiday inn breakfast buffet. >I also know that I wash my hands, and I sanitize every cooking surface in my kitchen daily (or more often). I've never sanitized my cooking surface. I was taught to use vinegar as a cleaner and have never had issues (it's not a disinfectant). I haven't even had a cold in three years. >One of the things I do is infuse alcohols, often in bulk for gifts. When I do this, my sanitation protocol actually changes - I pre-sanitize every vessel using bleach, and I often times do wear gloves if I'm touching anything directly. A few of the things I do are brew beer, wine, kombucha, ferment vegetables, etc. I, too, used to use sanitize all of my bottles and containers. I then read The Art of Fermentation and realized that everything I was doing was moot. Lactic acid bacteria and yeasts do an excellent job of preservation, provided you give them a nurturing environment to thrive in. >Consider this: If you had a small cut on your hand, would you wear gloves before making yourself lunch? What if it was a stranger with a cough making your lunch, would you want them to wear gloves? The commune deserves more credit. People who abandon everything to live in a commune take personal interest in caring for one another. You're more likely to pick up something from a stranger with a cough at a restaurant, who didn't call in sick because they're still late on last month's phone bill, than someone at a commune - who could just ask another member to fill in. Keep in mind this is how society was for a long time.
- vorpalhex 8y ago
  Eggs, chicken, pork, even flour can be contaminated - Chipotle (a popular US fast-ish food chain) had woes upon woes until they finally gave it and started pasteurizing their flour. Dairy and meat are more susceptible of course, but even dry ingredients can come with contamination problems. Vinegar is a decent cleaner. I use it quite a bit myself, but it's not the best choice to clean up after raw meats and some other more aggressive bacteria. You may have a good immune system, and not run into any problems - good for you, I'm glad - but that is not going to be the case for any large group of people. > Lactic acid bacteria and yeasts do an excellent job of preservation Preservation is not sanitation. Yeast will feed off of many things and grow, but it won't typically attack germs or viruses. Those germs will however gladly feed off of the same food you're giving the yeast. This is why aggressively sanitizing any fermenting vessel is so important - you're creating the ideal environments for bacteria to grow and you want to make sure it's only your selected bacteria that are growing. > Keep in mind this is how society was for a long time. That is a myth and falsehood. The work week for the average person going back thousands of years was 60+ hours. There was no vacation or sick leave. Sure, if you had a small cottage industry you might be able to ask a family member to do extra work for a day so you can rest, but for most of history children were pressed into labor at ages 8 - 10. > People who abandon everything to live in a commune take personal interest in caring for one another Then they should practice good sanitation and cleanliness. I'm not saying they shouldn't live in a commune, or that they're bad people - I'm saying they are not correctly practicing what we've learned in 10,000+ years of handling food stuffs for a community. If you care for your friend/neighbor/fellow commune-peer, then take a moment to wear gloves and a hair net so you don't get them sick.