5 ms·

Yeah I dunno about that. A month or so ago, I took a two week trip across France and Spain, it was one of the most lovely experiences of my life, staying in gr

by CPLX 8y ago

Yeah I dunno about that. A month or so ago, I took a two week trip across France and Spain, it was one of the most lovely experiences of my life, staying in great places, eating amazing food, etc. It was honestly about as wonderful and stimulating of an experience as I've ever had. About halfway through it I started to realize that I was still attached to my phone. I was sitting on trains reflexively checking Twitter for the disastrous updates in American politics instead of looking out the window at the Pyrenees, or in a museum constantly reaching for my pocket. In my personal story I took drastic action. I added parental controls to the phone, deleted some apps, made a commitment to keep the phone out of the bedroom, and other stuff, and have noticed a drastic improvement in mental health. I don't discount your experiences, they likely work for you and I believe you. Just like how many people can go into bars without becoming alcoholics, but there are other people who need to take affirmative steps towards abstinence, and avoid certain people places and things, as they say. But that's the nature of an addictive cycle. Not sure it actually in fact matters how great your life is, once you've acquired that addiction it's a habit that requires being affirmatively broken.

beaconstudios 8y ago
social media is specifically designed to provide you regular bursts of instant gratification. Of course that's going to be more attractive to your brain than natural vistas, it's engineered for maximum impact. When comparing natural and artificial stimuli I like to refer to this comic, which lays out the issue at hand beautifully: http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/supernormal-stimuli/ http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/supernormal-stimuli/
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  The same can be said for processed food. It's designed to be hyper-sensual. Of course it tastes better than an apple, it's designed that way. But one is healthy, and the other only tastes good.
  - fastbeef 8y ago
    I’ve noticed after doing bursts of healthy eating that most processed food is _extremly_ sweet. Even food we think of as “salty” or “savory” is dominanted by a sugary flavor. This is because sugar is such a cheap way of making something taste “good” and since everyone is doing it your brain filters it away
okmokmz 8y ago
It can take substantially more time than a 2 week trip to break addictive actions that you have been taking and conditioning yourself to perform over a long period of time. I agree, however, that sometimes establishing controls to limit or block your behavior initially can be helpful in breaking out of the cycle, and isn't necessarily self defeating so long as you are not depending on it entirely
chiefalchemist 8y ago
Bakary said: "In my own experience struggling with addiction I've found that it is a symptom rather than a cause." You said: "but there are other people who need to take affirmative steps towards abstinence, and avoid certain people places and things, as they say." To clarify, you each are saying two different things; with Bakery addressing the disease, and you common symptoms (of failed attempts at trying to cure symptoms). For example, let's say you're an addict of some sort and you get "treatment" (e.g., 30 day detox). But the problem is, you drink because X happen to you as a child. You "addict" (so to speak) to mask that pain. But the detox treatment never addressed that root cause. Quitting the habit doesn't eliminate the need that created that habit. After 30 day you check out. For a moment, you're clean. In your mind, you've got it beat. However, humans are also creature of habit, as well as creatures of conformity (i.e., we "default" to the norms around us). When it comes to basic behaviors context matters. A lot. You return to your old neighborhood, old friends (likely some are also addicts), etc., old TV shows. More of less, the same routine. Keep in mind, you're not cured, only __temporarily__ clean. In no time at all you're off the wagon. Why? Because your root problem was never cured to begin with. And being human means you assume the "norms" around you. Sure, you can abstain from your device. But you still haven't solved The Problem (upper T upper P intentional). You simply grabbed a balloon. The root cause is now likely to pop out somewhere else.
- dwaltrip 8y ago
  That could be the case for some people. For many others, there probably isn't some other root cause. It's the damn phone (and the apps on the phone) that is causing the problem.
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    Well. Um. But... craving an unnatural amount of attention __is__ a root cause. Wanting to seek conflict __is__ a root cause. Seeking to reconfirm my confirmation bias __is__ a root cause. FOMO __is__ a root cause. The device enables these things - take the device away and they will still exist - it does not create them. It doesn't make sense to blame the device for what is ultimately a human behavior issue. The abuse of the device __is__ a red flag for "we have a problem here" and that problem is not the device. "Curing for the device" will not solve the root problem(s).
TeMPOraL 8y ago
> A month or so ago, I took a two week trip across France and Spain, it was one of the most lovely experiences of my life, staying in great places, eating amazing food, etc. It was honestly about as wonderful and stimulating of an experience as I've ever had. But were they really? The thing I'm no longer afraid to admit about myself - I don't enjoy such stuff. I don't derive much pleasure from views of nature, don't like typical tourist destinations (for instance, last year I went to Pripyat, and liked it much better than Lviv or Kiev). I don't enjoy eating local cousine, I prefer regular commercial-grade pizza, thank you. I tried pretending that I like "normal" things for a long time, but this cognitive dissonance isn't worth it. I still agree with GP here - if the things you do are fulfilling, you'll be less inclined to pick up the phone. For me, it won't be France or Spain, but it will be a programming side project. It won't be hiking, but it will be going out with an air gun and shooting a bit. I don't feel an addiction to tech then, but get me back to the office, and suddenly the addiction is back too. To be clear: I'm not discounting the addictiveness of consumer-oriented tech - but I do feel that it's often easier to break the feedback loop by fixing the other end of it.
- CPLX 8y ago
  Yes they were really. It really was, literally, the thing in life I like to do the most. I live to travel and see new places, it's the favorite activity I ever engage in. I just disagree with this whole idea that there HAS to be some "missing hole" that phones fill. These apps are addictive, that's not really a secret they are designed to be by teams of brilliant people. It's possible that many heroin addicts have "holes" in their life that they fill, but it's also pretty much a certainty that if you take a random person and unwittingly feed them heroin for awhile telling them it's harmless, they're going to have withdrawal symptoms if they stop. I'm aware of the Rat Park study and it's interesting but it's pretty isolated and hasn't been replicated, and either way it's just one intriguing counterpoint, not dispositive. It's often a misconception that 12 step programs talk about getting to "root causes" first. They do, to some extent, but they always focus immediately and completely on total abstinence until that has been achieved. Then, the "root causes" stuff is really better described as picking up the pieces of a broken life, and specifically a ton of broken relationships, since the one thing all addicts have in common is a large number of close relationships with people that they have ruined. Sobriety in that context really isn't about getting to and fixing "root causes" to be honest. It's more about setting up a set of current habits, and social support, that are based around non addictive behaviors.
ip26 8y ago
There's two pieces- you replace the stimulus, but you also have to break the old habit/reflex. When traveling, thus far I've skipped getting local service. At least where we've been, WiFi is scarce, and as a result the phone remains a valuable planning tool but becomes useless as a dopamine drip. It's more like how I imagine a pocket computer "should" be- you can find WiFi & make a video call back home, you can look up information about the town, you can store maps and boarding passes, play music, snap reference photos of signboards, check in with your bank, etc. But 98% of the time it's slumbering in a corner of your luggage (and getting great battery life) FWIW, this ultimately led me to a relatively low-data plan at home, 500MB/mo, both to save money as well as to slow the drip.
MetalGuru 8y ago
You example of people going into bars and not becoming alcoholics isn't applicable because they aren't addicts... There's usually an underlying cause of addiction. But it doesn't have to be boredom like in OP's case. The steps you talk about taking towards abstinence are usually to reinforce different habits (which is done in addition to addressing the underlying cause). I do see the point you're making. I think addiction to your phone is a little unique. The behavior is so reinforced that it becomes second nature. Whereas, for example, picking up drugs is a much more deliberate/infrequent effort relative to pulling your phone out of your pocket. Which is probably why the conditioning of other habits is so important in that case. You have to deliberately rewire those deeply ingrained neural pathways.

by CPLX 8y ago

beaconstudios 8y ago

social media is specifically designed to provide you regular bursts of instant gratification. Of course that's going to be more attractive to your brain than natural vistas, it's engineered for maximum impact. When comparing natural and artificial stimuli I like to refer to this comic, which lays out the issue at hand beautifully: http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/supernormal-stimuli/ http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/supernormal-stimuli/

chiefalchemist 8y ago
The same can be said for processed food. It's designed to be hyper-sensual. Of course it tastes better than an apple, it's designed that way. But one is healthy, and the other only tastes good.
- fastbeef 8y ago
  I’ve noticed after doing bursts of healthy eating that most processed food is _extremly_ sweet. Even food we think of as “salty” or “savory” is dominanted by a sugary flavor. This is because sugar is such a cheap way of making something taste “good” and since everyone is doing it your brain filters it away

okmokmz 8y ago

It can take substantially more time than a 2 week trip to break addictive actions that you have been taking and conditioning yourself to perform over a long period of time. I agree, however, that sometimes establishing controls to limit or block your behavior initially can be helpful in breaking out of the cycle, and isn't necessarily self defeating so long as you are not depending on it entirely

chiefalchemist 8y ago

Bakary said: "In my own experience struggling with addiction I've found that it is a symptom rather than a cause." You said: "but there are other people who need to take affirmative steps towards abstinence, and avoid certain people places and things, as they say." To clarify, you each are saying two different things; with Bakery addressing the disease, and you common symptoms (of failed attempts at trying to cure symptoms). For example, let's say you're an addict of some sort and you get "treatment" (e.g., 30 day detox). But the problem is, you drink because X happen to you as a child. You "addict" (so to speak) to mask that pain. But the detox treatment never addressed that root cause. Quitting the habit doesn't eliminate the need that created that habit. After 30 day you check out. For a moment, you're clean. In your mind, you've got it beat. However, humans are also creature of habit, as well as creatures of conformity (i.e., we "default" to the norms around us). When it comes to basic behaviors context matters. A lot. You return to your old neighborhood, old friends (likely some are also addicts), etc., old TV shows. More of less, the same routine. Keep in mind, you're not cured, only __temporarily__ clean. In no time at all you're off the wagon. Why? Because your root problem was never cured to begin with. And being human means you assume the "norms" around you. Sure, you can abstain from your device. But you still haven't solved The Problem (upper T upper P intentional). You simply grabbed a balloon. The root cause is now likely to pop out somewhere else.

dwaltrip 8y ago
That could be the case for some people. For many others, there probably isn't some other root cause. It's the damn phone (and the apps on the phone) that is causing the problem.
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  Well. Um. But... craving an unnatural amount of attention __is__ a root cause. Wanting to seek conflict __is__ a root cause. Seeking to reconfirm my confirmation bias __is__ a root cause. FOMO __is__ a root cause. The device enables these things - take the device away and they will still exist - it does not create them. It doesn't make sense to blame the device for what is ultimately a human behavior issue. The abuse of the device __is__ a red flag for "we have a problem here" and that problem is not the device. "Curing for the device" will not solve the root problem(s).

TeMPOraL 8y ago

> A month or so ago, I took a two week trip across France and Spain, it was one of the most lovely experiences of my life, staying in great places, eating amazing food, etc. It was honestly about as wonderful and stimulating of an experience as I've ever had. But were they really? The thing I'm no longer afraid to admit about myself - I don't enjoy such stuff. I don't derive much pleasure from views of nature, don't like typical tourist destinations (for instance, last year I went to Pripyat, and liked it much better than Lviv or Kiev). I don't enjoy eating local cousine, I prefer regular commercial-grade pizza, thank you. I tried pretending that I like "normal" things for a long time, but this cognitive dissonance isn't worth it. I still agree with GP here - if the things you do are fulfilling, you'll be less inclined to pick up the phone. For me, it won't be France or Spain, but it will be a programming side project. It won't be hiking, but it will be going out with an air gun and shooting a bit. I don't feel an addiction to tech then, but get me back to the office, and suddenly the addiction is back too. To be clear: I'm not discounting the addictiveness of consumer-oriented tech - but I do feel that it's often easier to break the feedback loop by fixing the other end of it.

CPLX 8y ago
Yes they were really. It really was, literally, the thing in life I like to do the most. I live to travel and see new places, it's the favorite activity I ever engage in. I just disagree with this whole idea that there HAS to be some "missing hole" that phones fill. These apps are addictive, that's not really a secret they are designed to be by teams of brilliant people. It's possible that many heroin addicts have "holes" in their life that they fill, but it's also pretty much a certainty that if you take a random person and unwittingly feed them heroin for awhile telling them it's harmless, they're going to have withdrawal symptoms if they stop. I'm aware of the Rat Park study and it's interesting but it's pretty isolated and hasn't been replicated, and either way it's just one intriguing counterpoint, not dispositive. It's often a misconception that 12 step programs talk about getting to "root causes" first. They do, to some extent, but they always focus immediately and completely on total abstinence until that has been achieved. Then, the "root causes" stuff is really better described as picking up the pieces of a broken life, and specifically a ton of broken relationships, since the one thing all addicts have in common is a large number of close relationships with people that they have ruined. Sobriety in that context really isn't about getting to and fixing "root causes" to be honest. It's more about setting up a set of current habits, and social support, that are based around non addictive behaviors.

ip26 8y ago

There's two pieces- you replace the stimulus, but you also have to break the old habit/reflex. When traveling, thus far I've skipped getting local service. At least where we've been, WiFi is scarce, and as a result the phone remains a valuable planning tool but becomes useless as a dopamine drip. It's more like how I imagine a pocket computer "should" be- you can find WiFi & make a video call back home, you can look up information about the town, you can store maps and boarding passes, play music, snap reference photos of signboards, check in with your bank, etc. But 98% of the time it's slumbering in a corner of your luggage (and getting great battery life) FWIW, this ultimately led me to a relatively low-data plan at home, 500MB/mo, both to save money as well as to slow the drip.

MetalGuru 8y ago

You example of people going into bars and not becoming alcoholics isn't applicable because they aren't addicts... There's usually an underlying cause of addiction. But it doesn't have to be boredom like in OP's case. The steps you talk about taking towards abstinence are usually to reinforce different habits (which is done in addition to addressing the underlying cause). I do see the point you're making. I think addiction to your phone is a little unique. The behavior is so reinforced that it becomes second nature. Whereas, for example, picking up drugs is a much more deliberate/infrequent effort relative to pulling your phone out of your pocket. Which is probably why the conditioning of other habits is so important in that case. You have to deliberately rewire those deeply ingrained neural pathways.