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In my own experience struggling with addiction I've found that it is a symptom rather than a cause. Once you craft a life that is actually stimulating the tech

by Bakary 8y ago

In my own experience struggling with addiction I've found that it is a symptom rather than a cause. Once you craft a life that is actually stimulating the tech loses its hold over you pretty quickly, if not instantly (for example when you go on a weekend outing in nature and completely forget your phone). Of course, the time and energy wasted due to the dysfunctional behavior presents a chicken-and-egg roadblock against making this happen. I recall the studies showing the difference between Vietnam veterans who got hooked on dope and those who didn't, as well as Bruce K. Alexander's Rat Park experiments. The other thing I've learned is that control or blocking tools can be self-defeating, since they transform fighting the addiction into a perpetually unfinished task ("It's been Y time since I did X") that naturally remains to the forefront of your brain and leaves you vulnerable if you end up in an environment without those restrictions. It's ultimately easier to address the underlying causes of trying to escape through technology.

beaconstudios 8y ago
Addiction seems to fill emotional voids like unresolved trauma, depression, ennui, unfulfilled ambition and so on. I think much like a bad habit, an addiction needs to be replaced by something else that fills the gap but is positive instead (for example exercise, working, learning, or sports) otherwise the gap is still there and will exert continued pressure to return to the addiction. That or (where possible) removing the gap entirely by working through the root emotional cause.
- mbrock 8y ago
  The Buddhist perspective seems to be that we suffer from a general addiction ("craving"). Meditation is supposed to shine a light on that. Since few people ever just sit down without entertainment or work, the meditation posture becomes a way to notice (and subdue) one's constant tendency to reach for something to enjoy or accomplish. This craving comes as part of "attachment", the way our minds are hooked up into all kinds of duties, relations, plans, hopes, fears, etc. Mental life is like swinging from branch to branch in a jungle of obligations, desires, aversions, gossip, anxieties... In modern parlance it's the phenomenon that makes us feel constantly stressed about all kinds of stuff, in the most general sense, up to and including the end game vision that one day we're going to die, so we better get to work. Every time I check something off my todo list, two more things appear... Without buying into Buddhist metaphysics, I do think it points out something that's extremely palpable in these days, thus the recent (fading?) trending interest in meditation and mindfulness. Another lucid perspective on it is McLuhan's, like in a brief essay called "The Agenbite of Outwit." http://projects.chass.utoronto.ca/mcluhan-studies/v1_iss2/1_2art6.htm http://projects.chass.utoronto.ca/mcluhan-studies/v1_iss2/1_... With the telegraph Western man began a process of putting his nerves outside his body. Previous technologies had been extensions of physical organs: the wheel is a putting-outside-ourselves of the feet; the city wall is a collective outering of the skin. But electronic media are, instead, extensions of the central nervous system, an inclusive and simultaneous field. Since the telegraph we have extended the brains and nerves of man around the globe. As a result, the electronic age endures a total uneasiness, as of a man wearing his skull inside and his brain outside. We have become peculiarly vulnerable. The year of the establishment of the commercial telegraph in America, 1844, was also the year Kierkegaard published The Concept of Dread. Mental health in the age of the internet indeed seems like a major topic.
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    I totally agree. I think this constant need to be doing something is one of the voids that needs to be filled, and it seems to be largely cultural and driven by consumerism. Meditation is a great way to tackle that and many other voids, I regularly find myself feeling much more emotionally levelled out after having meditated successfully.
    - mbrock 8y ago
      On the other hand, in some way I think the Buddhist rhetoric—probably especially in the West—can tend to exaggerate in making it seem like the original sin. Which it probably is if you're striving for the kind of nirvana that Buddhist monks strive for... But "laypeople" shouldn't get meta-anxious about it and try to achieve a mental peace that's impossible in their life situation. Even in Zen they have the saying "no work, no eat." But yeah, maybe we spend 98% of our waking life in attachment, when a better ratio would be, say, 80%? And the insidious thing about "tech" is that it's constantly available. It's almost like having a schizophrenic voice in your head that interrupts every quiet moment. I think everyone has their own little ways of getting some daily quietude, but I do also think that with the current state of advanced distraction technologies, it's not rare for someone to spend a whole day "online."
  - kopo 8y ago
    Buddhist thinking does give people narratives/rituals/methods to detach, that are without doubt of great value in today's hyperconnected world. And hyper connection does make us all vulnerable indeed. But on the other end of the spectrum, Sugata Mitra, the educator, likes to say humanity has just uncovered the ability to murmurate like starlings, thanks to the hyperconnectivity the internet enable. It's still early days and pretty chaotic and mad, but just like a crowd has some magical self organizing ability to synchronize their clapping, who knows whether this hyper connectivity is on the verge of producing the same. I'd like to think we will get there, and are just going through a temporary bumping into each other phase. The talk for anyone interested - https://youtu.be/upg8LlJZtas?t=3567 https://youtu.be/upg8LlJZtas?t=3567
    - 8y ago
CPLX 8y ago
Yeah I dunno about that. A month or so ago, I took a two week trip across France and Spain, it was one of the most lovely experiences of my life, staying in great places, eating amazing food, etc. It was honestly about as wonderful and stimulating of an experience as I've ever had. About halfway through it I started to realize that I was still attached to my phone. I was sitting on trains reflexively checking Twitter for the disastrous updates in American politics instead of looking out the window at the Pyrenees, or in a museum constantly reaching for my pocket. In my personal story I took drastic action. I added parental controls to the phone, deleted some apps, made a commitment to keep the phone out of the bedroom, and other stuff, and have noticed a drastic improvement in mental health. I don't discount your experiences, they likely work for you and I believe you. Just like how many people can go into bars without becoming alcoholics, but there are other people who need to take affirmative steps towards abstinence, and avoid certain people places and things, as they say. But that's the nature of an addictive cycle. Not sure it actually in fact matters how great your life is, once you've acquired that addiction it's a habit that requires being affirmatively broken.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  social media is specifically designed to provide you regular bursts of instant gratification. Of course that's going to be more attractive to your brain than natural vistas, it's engineered for maximum impact. When comparing natural and artificial stimuli I like to refer to this comic, which lays out the issue at hand beautifully: http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/supernormal-stimuli/ http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/supernormal-stimuli/
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    The same can be said for processed food. It's designed to be hyper-sensual. Of course it tastes better than an apple, it's designed that way. But one is healthy, and the other only tastes good.
    - fastbeef 8y ago
      I’ve noticed after doing bursts of healthy eating that most processed food is _extremly_ sweet. Even food we think of as “salty” or “savory” is dominanted by a sugary flavor. This is because sugar is such a cheap way of making something taste “good” and since everyone is doing it your brain filters it away
twodave 8y ago
There are definitely nuggets of truth to what you say, but I can say first hand that often the biggest challenge (after admitting your flaws, of course) in battling addiction is determining what exactly it is that I am missing. If things are going well in my life generally (marriage, work, friends, spiritually, etc) and yet I still feel the pull to this coping mechanism, why is that?! I don’t have any latent trauma that I’m aware of either. It can be utterly demoralizing and confusing to continually fail for seemingly no reason at all.
- okmokmz 8y ago
  Having a support system, and things in your life to focus on outside of your addiction, such as marriage, work, friends, spirituality is certainly important in recovering from addiction, but it is not a cure. It's perfectly normal to experience feelings of wanting to go back to what you were addicted to, especially in times of stress, sadness, or any other emotions you have a hard time handling. Relapsing, or feeling as if you want to go back to your addiction, is not a failure. As most recovering addicts will tell you, relapse is just another part of recovery
- bluntfang 8y ago
  >If things are going well in my life generally (marriage, work, friends, spiritually, etc) and yet I still feel the pull to this coping mechanism, why is that?! dopamine receptor abuse by these giant companies with a large line item for psychological research.
- mbrock 8y ago
  The internet is the most fascinating thing in the history of humanity. Of course you're "addicted" to it, why wouldn't you be? In the old days you would have been addicted to reading books, probably. Every second you're faced with the choice "should I do nothing in particular or should I reach into my pocket for the ultimate information entertainment device?" Why wouldn't you take a look at what the internet has to offer this minute? That might be a really interesting question to try to answer. Is there something else you'd rather be "addicted" to, some kind of less salty addiction, something more challenging?
Taylor_OD 8y ago
This is what I've realized about myself and addition. I get into new things fast and tend to over commit or over indulge early on and once I realize it pull back. I've got it under control now because I realized my excessive drinking or drug usage was in large part because I was bored. Shit television or movies are much more entertaining when drunk or high. Social engagements that are not mentally stimulating to me are much more bearable when in an altered state. I picked up a few hobbies that I really enjoy and I no longer feel the need to hit the weed vape pen 5 times on my walk home from work. I paint, do yoga multiple times a week, read a lot, and I'm more selective about the social events I go to because I've got other things I can occupy my time with. I realize I'm just one data point but I think a lot of people use their vices to stave off boredom and make a life that is not all that interesting, interesting. Tech addition is a bit different because it's hard to unplug entirely because many of us need to use screens for work. Removing all the social media apps from my phone and limiting my screen time at home has been huge for my ADHD brain. I don't have to have my phone at my side constantly anymore. I find myself enjoying experiences instead of trying to bottle them up for presentation on an app. Maybe I sound a bit anti-tech but I believe a lot of people have gone too far down the rabbit hole and haven't realized it yet.
- __blockcipher__ 8y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I resonated with a lot of what you said. That's all, I have nothing to add :)
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  > I realize I'm just one data point but I think a lot of people use their vices to stave off boredom and make a life that is not all that interesting, interesting. It increasingly looks to me like the problem with vices like this (anything from Facebook to pot) is exactly what you describe. Too often, we talk about them like they ruin people's lives directly. There are a hundred thinkpieces taking correlations like "men who work shorter hours play more games" or "unhappiness is correlated with Facebook use" and concluding "therefore games drive you to not work and social media makes you unhappy!" But we're not talking about things with physical mechanisms or direct brain-chemical impacts here, and I wouldn't expect all the Skinner Box design in the world to make "flashy lights on a screen" more compelling than a tasty dinner or a good hug. Rather, social media, games, or endless Reddit scrolling slot all too easily into downtime and unsatisfying situations. My experience with them has always been that of a mild sedative; they create a tolerable baseline state for what might otherwise be intolerable situations. (I think the analogy to drinking prior to a crap TV show or a boring event is a great one. It's not alcohol addiction or abuse in any standard sense, but it's still alcohol legitimizing some other bad situation.) That can still make tech a problem inasmuch as it stops people from breaking out of those situations. But if the situation is externally imposed then it's playing a positive role, and if the situation can be broken with an offering tech doesn't interfere with then it's not playing a negative role. I do think there are people who would benefit from cutting back on tech, and I think we underestimate the impact of push notifications and instant focus switching on our attention. But I also think we neglect a lot of cases where tech is a palliative for some other problem we would be better off attacking directly.
wccrawford 8y ago
I'm a gamer and about as attached to tech as you can be without actually having mental issues over it. My wife and I recently bought a house and I've been finding that I'd rather spend time fixing it up than playing games or doing other stuff with electronics much of the time. That doesn't mean that I've quit wholesale, though. I eventually get physically or mentally tired and want to just relax, and it's back to the games I go. My point is that tech isn't what drives my life, it's just one of the things that I enjoy. And actually improving our house has proven even more enjoyable. I don't think the "solution" for "tech addiction" (as most people see it) is limiting phone time or focusing on the tech at all. Instead, the solution is for people to find a hobby that doesn't require an internet/cable connection and enjoy that instead. And if they don't, it doesn't bother me a bit. People can do what they want, so long as it doesn't harm others. People who have an actual "addiction" should seek professional help, though. Not some random guy that's making a startup, but someone with an actual degree in a profession that can help with mental issues.
- loceng 8y ago
  The private market will do a far better job fixing the status quo than the government or industrial complexes will. Some "random guy that's making a startup" presumably would do things to be safe, and ethical, no? You can make generalizations and assumptions otherwise, though that isn't very helpful. If you've ever had the displeasure to experience the healthcare system, you'd learn too that "professionals" are indoctrinated in a system that doesn't update their knowledge, keeps their knowledge in silos, and overall is inefficient and not getting people access to the most recent/best information/knowledge. Edit to add: I should have clarified/furthered my thoughts - and it's true you shouldn't by default trust a startup to do things safely or ethically, you should certainly do your due diligence that they aren't making claims that can't be backed up, nor are following processes (etc) that can do more than what is a pre-existing level of acceptable risk/harm. Presumably however, if they're/a startup is expecting to survive in the long-term they'd need to be leveraged and connected with safety and people with the appropriate knowledge, because they should be scrutinized more thoroughly if they're involved with health. Otherwise they're going to die off - and hopefully without hurting too many people or getting too big, like where we could reference Theranos.
reddyrepublic1 8y ago
This is so true from my own experience. In general any form of addiction is a symptom of a person not taking in something that is going on in his/her life.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Agreed. Nobody ever says "my life was so fulfilling before I got addicted to X"
98Windows 8y ago
I live in a dysfunctional world in which having a smartphone is really useful. I don't think that's going to change any time soon. So the least I can do is instruct my smartphone to limit my usage of certain things which I find reduce my quality of life but are very distracting.
SonicSoul 8y ago
can confirm. at work im addicted to Twitter/Instagram (even YouTube) but while traveling for couple weeks recently I found myself not caring at all about latest news in Politics or digital entertainment. Perhaps changing ones job is the most effective cure.
konaraddio 8y ago
> In my own experience struggling with addiction I've found that it is a symptom rather than a cause. Once you craft a life that is actually stimulating the tech loses its hold over you pretty quickly, if not instantly I see it as elimination through substitution
DoreenMichele 8y ago
A lot of "tech" stuff is kind of like a bottomless bag of potato chips. If you have nothing else to eat, you can keep reaching for another potato chip and never really feel satisfied. Slapping your own hand won't really fix the problem, but Thanksgiving dinner will have you groaning at the thought of trying to eat another potato chip.
scarecrowbob 8y ago
This is absolutely my experience with alcohol. A lot of the time, though, we have to quit dysfunctional behavior before we can identify what functional behavior looks like. I totally agree with you that there is a chicken and egg problem. My typical advice for folks is to quit the behavior completely: you're correct in identifying how blocking tools cause their own problems and just mimic the same addictive behavior. Then, at that point, it's going to be necessary to find some other behavior, but that's often a lot easier once you've got to do something... you just have to make sure that the things you choose to do are good. Like, I gave up my codependent relationship with my ex wife, and that made it possible to give up drinking, but I still have to play a shit-ton of scales on guitar and piano and about an hour of yoga or I get weird. Or I quit facebook, but now I do a a daily run of Kahn academy and working on electronics projects; that's a symptom, but it's a symptom that I enjoy.
- cwkoss 8y ago
  > but I still have to play a shit-ton of scales on guitar and piano and about an hour of yoga or I get weird. Found this very refreshing. I think 'eccentricity as medicine' may be a component missing from modern mental health treatment. Seems like the societal pressure to 'not seem weird' could exacerbate mental illness and stress. Perhaps if people with behavioral dysfunctions were encouraged not to "act normal" but "act weird in productive ways" it could be beneficial.
abhiminator 8y ago
>I recall the studies showing the difference between Vietnam veterans who got hooked on dope and those who didn't, as well as Bruce K. Alexander's Rat Park experiments. Here's a well made video [0] on this exact topic from, "Kurzgesagt," a YouTube channel. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg
2shillerly 8y ago
In a behavior-line; action => reaction => effect you can attribute 'emotion' as a catalyst (starting, speeding up, changing or steering a chemical process) so falling into euphoria, but not being able to infer fixed coherencies - maybe insights - it may be (thesis:) fatal and momentous. Cos, 'if i lose my ability to gain insights - i can't leave that maybe fatal situation that fast and easy' (-;
bachbach 8y ago
I think you have a point. I tried many times to go to the gym, eat well, sometimes temporarily succeeding. After moving out of my parent's house I lost 12kg in less than a year. I prepared my own meals before and after so that's a result. Not sure how you'd maintain an iron will in relation to the internet - few computer geeks I know can say "I'll be done in ten".

by Bakary 8y ago

beaconstudios 8y ago

Addiction seems to fill emotional voids like unresolved trauma, depression, ennui, unfulfilled ambition and so on. I think much like a bad habit, an addiction needs to be replaced by something else that fills the gap but is positive instead (for example exercise, working, learning, or sports) otherwise the gap is still there and will exert continued pressure to return to the addiction. That or (where possible) removing the gap entirely by working through the root emotional cause.

mbrock 8y ago
The Buddhist perspective seems to be that we suffer from a general addiction ("craving"). Meditation is supposed to shine a light on that. Since few people ever just sit down without entertainment or work, the meditation posture becomes a way to notice (and subdue) one's constant tendency to reach for something to enjoy or accomplish. This craving comes as part of "attachment", the way our minds are hooked up into all kinds of duties, relations, plans, hopes, fears, etc. Mental life is like swinging from branch to branch in a jungle of obligations, desires, aversions, gossip, anxieties... In modern parlance it's the phenomenon that makes us feel constantly stressed about all kinds of stuff, in the most general sense, up to and including the end game vision that one day we're going to die, so we better get to work. Every time I check something off my todo list, two more things appear... Without buying into Buddhist metaphysics, I do think it points out something that's extremely palpable in these days, thus the recent (fading?) trending interest in meditation and mindfulness. Another lucid perspective on it is McLuhan's, like in a brief essay called "The Agenbite of Outwit." http://projects.chass.utoronto.ca/mcluhan-studies/v1_iss2/1_2art6.htm http://projects.chass.utoronto.ca/mcluhan-studies/v1_iss2/1_... With the telegraph Western man began a process of putting his nerves outside his body. Previous technologies had been extensions of physical organs: the wheel is a putting-outside-ourselves of the feet; the city wall is a collective outering of the skin. But electronic media are, instead, extensions of the central nervous system, an inclusive and simultaneous field. Since the telegraph we have extended the brains and nerves of man around the globe. As a result, the electronic age endures a total uneasiness, as of a man wearing his skull inside and his brain outside. We have become peculiarly vulnerable. The year of the establishment of the commercial telegraph in America, 1844, was also the year Kierkegaard published The Concept of Dread. Mental health in the age of the internet indeed seems like a major topic.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  I totally agree. I think this constant need to be doing something is one of the voids that needs to be filled, and it seems to be largely cultural and driven by consumerism. Meditation is a great way to tackle that and many other voids, I regularly find myself feeling much more emotionally levelled out after having meditated successfully.
  - mbrock 8y ago
    On the other hand, in some way I think the Buddhist rhetoric—probably especially in the West—can tend to exaggerate in making it seem like the original sin. Which it probably is if you're striving for the kind of nirvana that Buddhist monks strive for... But "laypeople" shouldn't get meta-anxious about it and try to achieve a mental peace that's impossible in their life situation. Even in Zen they have the saying "no work, no eat." But yeah, maybe we spend 98% of our waking life in attachment, when a better ratio would be, say, 80%? And the insidious thing about "tech" is that it's constantly available. It's almost like having a schizophrenic voice in your head that interrupts every quiet moment. I think everyone has their own little ways of getting some daily quietude, but I do also think that with the current state of advanced distraction technologies, it's not rare for someone to spend a whole day "online."
- kopo 8y ago
  Buddhist thinking does give people narratives/rituals/methods to detach, that are without doubt of great value in today's hyperconnected world. And hyper connection does make us all vulnerable indeed. But on the other end of the spectrum, Sugata Mitra, the educator, likes to say humanity has just uncovered the ability to murmurate like starlings, thanks to the hyperconnectivity the internet enable. It's still early days and pretty chaotic and mad, but just like a crowd has some magical self organizing ability to synchronize their clapping, who knows whether this hyper connectivity is on the verge of producing the same. I'd like to think we will get there, and are just going through a temporary bumping into each other phase. The talk for anyone interested - https://youtu.be/upg8LlJZtas?t=3567 https://youtu.be/upg8LlJZtas?t=3567
  - 8y ago

CPLX 8y ago

Yeah I dunno about that. A month or so ago, I took a two week trip across France and Spain, it was one of the most lovely experiences of my life, staying in great places, eating amazing food, etc. It was honestly about as wonderful and stimulating of an experience as I've ever had. About halfway through it I started to realize that I was still attached to my phone. I was sitting on trains reflexively checking Twitter for the disastrous updates in American politics instead of looking out the window at the Pyrenees, or in a museum constantly reaching for my pocket. In my personal story I took drastic action. I added parental controls to the phone, deleted some apps, made a commitment to keep the phone out of the bedroom, and other stuff, and have noticed a drastic improvement in mental health. I don't discount your experiences, they likely work for you and I believe you. Just like how many people can go into bars without becoming alcoholics, but there are other people who need to take affirmative steps towards abstinence, and avoid certain people places and things, as they say. But that's the nature of an addictive cycle. Not sure it actually in fact matters how great your life is, once you've acquired that addiction it's a habit that requires being affirmatively broken.

beaconstudios 8y ago
social media is specifically designed to provide you regular bursts of instant gratification. Of course that's going to be more attractive to your brain than natural vistas, it's engineered for maximum impact. When comparing natural and artificial stimuli I like to refer to this comic, which lays out the issue at hand beautifully: http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/supernormal-stimuli/ http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/supernormal-stimuli/
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  The same can be said for processed food. It's designed to be hyper-sensual. Of course it tastes better than an apple, it's designed that way. But one is healthy, and the other only tastes good.
  - fastbeef 8y ago
    I’ve noticed after doing bursts of healthy eating that most processed food is _extremly_ sweet. Even food we think of as “salty” or “savory” is dominanted by a sugary flavor. This is because sugar is such a cheap way of making something taste “good” and since everyone is doing it your brain filters it away

twodave 8y ago

There are definitely nuggets of truth to what you say, but I can say first hand that often the biggest challenge (after admitting your flaws, of course) in battling addiction is determining what exactly it is that I am missing. If things are going well in my life generally (marriage, work, friends, spiritually, etc) and yet I still feel the pull to this coping mechanism, why is that?! I don’t have any latent trauma that I’m aware of either. It can be utterly demoralizing and confusing to continually fail for seemingly no reason at all.

okmokmz 8y ago
Having a support system, and things in your life to focus on outside of your addiction, such as marriage, work, friends, spirituality is certainly important in recovering from addiction, but it is not a cure. It's perfectly normal to experience feelings of wanting to go back to what you were addicted to, especially in times of stress, sadness, or any other emotions you have a hard time handling. Relapsing, or feeling as if you want to go back to your addiction, is not a failure. As most recovering addicts will tell you, relapse is just another part of recovery
bluntfang 8y ago
>If things are going well in my life generally (marriage, work, friends, spiritually, etc) and yet I still feel the pull to this coping mechanism, why is that?! dopamine receptor abuse by these giant companies with a large line item for psychological research.
mbrock 8y ago
The internet is the most fascinating thing in the history of humanity. Of course you're "addicted" to it, why wouldn't you be? In the old days you would have been addicted to reading books, probably. Every second you're faced with the choice "should I do nothing in particular or should I reach into my pocket for the ultimate information entertainment device?" Why wouldn't you take a look at what the internet has to offer this minute? That might be a really interesting question to try to answer. Is there something else you'd rather be "addicted" to, some kind of less salty addiction, something more challenging?

Taylor_OD 8y ago

This is what I've realized about myself and addition. I get into new things fast and tend to over commit or over indulge early on and once I realize it pull back. I've got it under control now because I realized my excessive drinking or drug usage was in large part because I was bored. Shit television or movies are much more entertaining when drunk or high. Social engagements that are not mentally stimulating to me are much more bearable when in an altered state. I picked up a few hobbies that I really enjoy and I no longer feel the need to hit the weed vape pen 5 times on my walk home from work. I paint, do yoga multiple times a week, read a lot, and I'm more selective about the social events I go to because I've got other things I can occupy my time with. I realize I'm just one data point but I think a lot of people use their vices to stave off boredom and make a life that is not all that interesting, interesting. Tech addition is a bit different because it's hard to unplug entirely because many of us need to use screens for work. Removing all the social media apps from my phone and limiting my screen time at home has been huge for my ADHD brain. I don't have to have my phone at my side constantly anymore. I find myself enjoying experiences instead of trying to bottle them up for presentation on an app. Maybe I sound a bit anti-tech but I believe a lot of people have gone too far down the rabbit hole and haven't realized it yet.

__blockcipher__ 8y ago
Thanks for sharing. I resonated with a lot of what you said. That's all, I have nothing to add :)
Bartweiss 8y ago
> I realize I'm just one data point but I think a lot of people use their vices to stave off boredom and make a life that is not all that interesting, interesting. It increasingly looks to me like the problem with vices like this (anything from Facebook to pot) is exactly what you describe. Too often, we talk about them like they ruin people's lives directly. There are a hundred thinkpieces taking correlations like "men who work shorter hours play more games" or "unhappiness is correlated with Facebook use" and concluding "therefore games drive you to not work and social media makes you unhappy!" But we're not talking about things with physical mechanisms or direct brain-chemical impacts here, and I wouldn't expect all the Skinner Box design in the world to make "flashy lights on a screen" more compelling than a tasty dinner or a good hug. Rather, social media, games, or endless Reddit scrolling slot all too easily into downtime and unsatisfying situations. My experience with them has always been that of a mild sedative; they create a tolerable baseline state for what might otherwise be intolerable situations. (I think the analogy to drinking prior to a crap TV show or a boring event is a great one. It's not alcohol addiction or abuse in any standard sense, but it's still alcohol legitimizing some other bad situation.) That can still make tech a problem inasmuch as it stops people from breaking out of those situations. But if the situation is externally imposed then it's playing a positive role, and if the situation can be broken with an offering tech doesn't interfere with then it's not playing a negative role. I do think there are people who would benefit from cutting back on tech, and I think we underestimate the impact of push notifications and instant focus switching on our attention. But I also think we neglect a lot of cases where tech is a palliative for some other problem we would be better off attacking directly.

wccrawford 8y ago

I'm a gamer and about as attached to tech as you can be without actually having mental issues over it. My wife and I recently bought a house and I've been finding that I'd rather spend time fixing it up than playing games or doing other stuff with electronics much of the time. That doesn't mean that I've quit wholesale, though. I eventually get physically or mentally tired and want to just relax, and it's back to the games I go. My point is that tech isn't what drives my life, it's just one of the things that I enjoy. And actually improving our house has proven even more enjoyable. I don't think the "solution" for "tech addiction" (as most people see it) is limiting phone time or focusing on the tech at all. Instead, the solution is for people to find a hobby that doesn't require an internet/cable connection and enjoy that instead. And if they don't, it doesn't bother me a bit. People can do what they want, so long as it doesn't harm others. People who have an actual "addiction" should seek professional help, though. Not some random guy that's making a startup, but someone with an actual degree in a profession that can help with mental issues.

loceng 8y ago
The private market will do a far better job fixing the status quo than the government or industrial complexes will. Some "random guy that's making a startup" presumably would do things to be safe, and ethical, no? You can make generalizations and assumptions otherwise, though that isn't very helpful. If you've ever had the displeasure to experience the healthcare system, you'd learn too that "professionals" are indoctrinated in a system that doesn't update their knowledge, keeps their knowledge in silos, and overall is inefficient and not getting people access to the most recent/best information/knowledge. Edit to add: I should have clarified/furthered my thoughts - and it's true you shouldn't by default trust a startup to do things safely or ethically, you should certainly do your due diligence that they aren't making claims that can't be backed up, nor are following processes (etc) that can do more than what is a pre-existing level of acceptable risk/harm. Presumably however, if they're/a startup is expecting to survive in the long-term they'd need to be leveraged and connected with safety and people with the appropriate knowledge, because they should be scrutinized more thoroughly if they're involved with health. Otherwise they're going to die off - and hopefully without hurting too many people or getting too big, like where we could reference Theranos.

reddyrepublic1 8y ago

This is so true from my own experience. In general any form of addiction is a symptom of a person not taking in something that is going on in his/her life.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

Agreed. Nobody ever says "my life was so fulfilling before I got addicted to X"

98Windows 8y ago

I live in a dysfunctional world in which having a smartphone is really useful. I don't think that's going to change any time soon. So the least I can do is instruct my smartphone to limit my usage of certain things which I find reduce my quality of life but are very distracting.

SonicSoul 8y ago

can confirm. at work im addicted to Twitter/Instagram (even YouTube) but while traveling for couple weeks recently I found myself not caring at all about latest news in Politics or digital entertainment. Perhaps changing ones job is the most effective cure.

konaraddio 8y ago

> In my own experience struggling with addiction I've found that it is a symptom rather than a cause. Once you craft a life that is actually stimulating the tech loses its hold over you pretty quickly, if not instantly I see it as elimination through substitution

DoreenMichele 8y ago

A lot of "tech" stuff is kind of like a bottomless bag of potato chips. If you have nothing else to eat, you can keep reaching for another potato chip and never really feel satisfied. Slapping your own hand won't really fix the problem, but Thanksgiving dinner will have you groaning at the thought of trying to eat another potato chip.

scarecrowbob 8y ago

This is absolutely my experience with alcohol. A lot of the time, though, we have to quit dysfunctional behavior before we can identify what functional behavior looks like. I totally agree with you that there is a chicken and egg problem. My typical advice for folks is to quit the behavior completely: you're correct in identifying how blocking tools cause their own problems and just mimic the same addictive behavior. Then, at that point, it's going to be necessary to find some other behavior, but that's often a lot easier once you've got to do something... you just have to make sure that the things you choose to do are good. Like, I gave up my codependent relationship with my ex wife, and that made it possible to give up drinking, but I still have to play a shit-ton of scales on guitar and piano and about an hour of yoga or I get weird. Or I quit facebook, but now I do a a daily run of Kahn academy and working on electronics projects; that's a symptom, but it's a symptom that I enjoy.

cwkoss 8y ago
> but I still have to play a shit-ton of scales on guitar and piano and about an hour of yoga or I get weird. Found this very refreshing. I think 'eccentricity as medicine' may be a component missing from modern mental health treatment. Seems like the societal pressure to 'not seem weird' could exacerbate mental illness and stress. Perhaps if people with behavioral dysfunctions were encouraged not to "act normal" but "act weird in productive ways" it could be beneficial.

abhiminator 8y ago

>I recall the studies showing the difference between Vietnam veterans who got hooked on dope and those who didn't, as well as Bruce K. Alexander's Rat Park experiments. Here's a well made video [0] on this exact topic from, "Kurzgesagt," a YouTube channel. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg

2shillerly 8y ago

In a behavior-line; action => reaction => effect you can attribute 'emotion' as a catalyst (starting, speeding up, changing or steering a chemical process) so falling into euphoria, but not being able to infer fixed coherencies - maybe insights - it may be (thesis:) fatal and momentous. Cos, 'if i lose my ability to gain insights - i can't leave that maybe fatal situation that fast and easy' (-;

bachbach 8y ago

I think you have a point. I tried many times to go to the gym, eat well, sometimes temporarily succeeding. After moving out of my parent's house I lost 12kg in less than a year. I prepared my own meals before and after so that's a result. Not sure how you'd maintain an iron will in relation to the internet - few computer geeks I know can say "I'll be done in ten".