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The fact that they fucked up their economy again (even with unconditional free money) doesn't change a thing. They still received extreme economical help from t

by illuminati1911 8y ago

The fact that they fucked up their economy again (even with unconditional free money) doesn't change a thing. They still received extreme economical help from the EU and the least they could do is not cause anymore trouble. Not to mention paying the money back.

tanilama 8y ago
I think those EU money will need to be paid back one way or another. EU has a fundamental problem: it is a now a unified economical entity, but not a political one. Using Germany's money to bailout other countries' economy is frown upon by both sides, thus can't sustain.
Arn_Thor 8y ago
The money was very much conditional. Mandatory austerity, for example, which crippled the state and economy as a whole with effects that could last a generation
rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
>They still received extreme economical help from the EU The EU only tried to get Greece to pay back most its debt, at all costs (social/political/economical...). Who do you think they were helping the most: the big banks or the Greek citizens?
- sgift 8y ago
  The banks obviously. If someone here says we "helped" Greece they either don't know better or lie. Plus, the bailouts were all credits. We Germans get money from the markets for 1% (or whatever the rate is at the moment), give it to Greece for 5%, make money as a lender (as long as Greece pays it back and we did make sure that they do, didn't we? First order: You pay back every credit. People are hungry? Irrelevant. First pay back credits) and then we have the audacity to call that a bailout and demand gratitude.
RobertoG 8y ago
There is a very simple fact: in order to develop an economy you need investment, not austerity. There is not democratic country that would accept for its population what the Europeans have forced on Greece. You want Greece start thinking in the EU like "us" when they deal with China, but, at the same time, we Europeans, talk about how "they fucked" it. You can't have it both ways: or Greece are "us" or Greece are "they". In my opinion, the debt crisis showed them, and others, clearly that it's not* the former. *edited: added the 'not'.
- thefounder 8y ago
  As long as there is no fiscal union you can't simply share the loss between member states. Is as simple as that. We can talk about we and the "EU budget" all time long but if we want to talk about "our" money and "our" debt the we need some kind of fiscal union. We can't talk about "our" money only when we get bankrupted.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Without a fiscal union there should never have been a monetary union.
    - RobertoG 8y ago
      ..and many economist warned about it.
      - growlist 8y ago
        And politicians - pretty sure I recall that Michael Portillo predicted exactly the sort of problems the euro has been through over recent times.
    - thefounder 8y ago
      You would think that and here we are.
  - RobertoG 8y ago
wott 8y ago
> The fact that they fucked up their economy again Uh? Their economical politics have been dictated by EU since the crisis. > even with unconditional free money Uh? You mean mostly extra loans that they had to repay, like any loan. And it was not unconditional either, since they had to apply the economical politics of EU, so that EU was sure they would repay.
coldtea 8y ago
>The fact that they fucked up their economy again (even with unconditional free money) Yeah, just not unconditional, not free, and no money. They got credit (e.g. not money but another loan), under severe conditions (e.g. not unconditional), foreign analysts have compared to those signed when you're defeated in a war, and even IMF officials have admitted they were "the wrong solution"), and it had to go directly to repayments (e.g. not free). So in effect, the German-led EU paid the German banks and major private investors holding most of the debt, with EU money, still keeping Greece in debt (from the new credit), making some good money in the process (see linked articles above), and imposing their economic agenda on top. >and the least they could do is not cause anymore trouble A, those pesky Greeks always causing trouble. And ungrateful at that. Not, like e.g. a galant nation invading their country, causing the death of a million people (including almost all Greek Jews), taking a "loan" to itself from the occupied government it had setup, bombing Greece's ports and infrastructure before leaving, and then refusing to pay recuperations...
- YorkshireSeason 8y ago
  paid the German banks and major private investors holding most of the debt As far as I understand, see e.g. [1], the biggest debt-holders by far (in absolute terms and even more so relative to GDP) where Greek banks. The biggest foreign debt-holders (in absolute term) were French banks. Relative to GDP the biggest foreign debt holders were banks from Belgium, followed by France. Moreover, Greek debt held by German banks was spread over a 11 banks, rather than concentrated in 2 (Belgium) or 4 (France), hence less systemic risk. In the light of this data, I do not think it's reasonable to speak as you did above. It was primarily a bailout of Greek, French and Belgium banks. Aside, if Yanis Varoufakis' account is to be believed, the core reason why Germany accepted the bailout was political and twofold: * The governing coalition under Merkel had elections upcoming, and staked its entire reputation on the EU and the Euro. A new Euro-Critical party (Alternative fuer Deutschland AfD) emerged. It was felt that Greece dropping out of the Euro and defaulting would be seen by the voters as a vindication of the Alternative fuer Deutschland. * Powerstruggle with France: if Germany went soft with Greece, it was felt that that would give France an excuse to tap German money even more than it already does. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jun/17/greece-debt-crisis-bank-exposed https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jun/17/greece...

tanilama 8y ago

I think those EU money will need to be paid back one way or another. EU has a fundamental problem: it is a now a unified economical entity, but not a political one. Using Germany's money to bailout other countries' economy is frown upon by both sides, thus can't sustain.

Arn_Thor 8y ago

The money was very much conditional. Mandatory austerity, for example, which crippled the state and economy as a whole with effects that could last a generation

rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago

>They still received extreme economical help from the EU The EU only tried to get Greece to pay back most its debt, at all costs (social/political/economical...). Who do you think they were helping the most: the big banks or the Greek citizens?

sgift 8y ago
The banks obviously. If someone here says we "helped" Greece they either don't know better or lie. Plus, the bailouts were all credits. We Germans get money from the markets for 1% (or whatever the rate is at the moment), give it to Greece for 5%, make money as a lender (as long as Greece pays it back and we did make sure that they do, didn't we? First order: You pay back every credit. People are hungry? Irrelevant. First pay back credits) and then we have the audacity to call that a bailout and demand gratitude.

RobertoG 8y ago

There is a very simple fact: in order to develop an economy you need investment, not austerity. There is not democratic country that would accept for its population what the Europeans have forced on Greece. You want Greece start thinking in the EU like "us" when they deal with China, but, at the same time, we Europeans, talk about how "they fucked" it. You can't have it both ways: or Greece are "us" or Greece are "they". In my opinion, the debt crisis showed them, and others, clearly that it's not* the former. *edited: added the 'not'.

thefounder 8y ago
As long as there is no fiscal union you can't simply share the loss between member states. Is as simple as that. We can talk about we and the "EU budget" all time long but if we want to talk about "our" money and "our" debt the we need some kind of fiscal union. We can't talk about "our" money only when we get bankrupted.
- pjc50 8y ago
  Without a fiscal union there should never have been a monetary union.
  - RobertoG 8y ago
    ..and many economist warned about it.
    - growlist 8y ago
      And politicians - pretty sure I recall that Michael Portillo predicted exactly the sort of problems the euro has been through over recent times.
  - thefounder 8y ago
    You would think that and here we are.
- RobertoG 8y ago

wott 8y ago

> The fact that they fucked up their economy again Uh? Their economical politics have been dictated by EU since the crisis. > even with unconditional free money Uh? You mean mostly extra loans that they had to repay, like any loan. And it was not unconditional either, since they had to apply the economical politics of EU, so that EU was sure they would repay.

coldtea 8y ago

>The fact that they fucked up their economy again (even with unconditional free money) Yeah, just not unconditional, not free, and no money. They got credit (e.g. not money but another loan), under severe conditions (e.g. not unconditional), foreign analysts have compared to those signed when you're defeated in a war, and even IMF officials have admitted they were "the wrong solution"), and it had to go directly to repayments (e.g. not free). So in effect, the German-led EU paid the German banks and major private investors holding most of the debt, with EU money, still keeping Greece in debt (from the new credit), making some good money in the process (see linked articles above), and imposing their economic agenda on top. >and the least they could do is not cause anymore trouble A, those pesky Greeks always causing trouble. And ungrateful at that. Not, like e.g. a galant nation invading their country, causing the death of a million people (including almost all Greek Jews), taking a "loan" to itself from the occupied government it had setup, bombing Greece's ports and infrastructure before leaving, and then refusing to pay recuperations...

YorkshireSeason 8y ago
paid the German banks and major private investors holding most of the debt As far as I understand, see e.g. [1], the biggest debt-holders by far (in absolute terms and even more so relative to GDP) where Greek banks. The biggest foreign debt-holders (in absolute term) were French banks. Relative to GDP the biggest foreign debt holders were banks from Belgium, followed by France. Moreover, Greek debt held by German banks was spread over a 11 banks, rather than concentrated in 2 (Belgium) or 4 (France), hence less systemic risk. In the light of this data, I do not think it's reasonable to speak as you did above. It was primarily a bailout of Greek, French and Belgium banks. Aside, if Yanis Varoufakis' account is to be believed, the core reason why Germany accepted the bailout was political and twofold: * The governing coalition under Merkel had elections upcoming, and staked its entire reputation on the EU and the Euro. A new Euro-Critical party (Alternative fuer Deutschland AfD) emerged. It was felt that Greece dropping out of the Euro and defaulting would be seen by the voters as a vindication of the Alternative fuer Deutschland. * Powerstruggle with France: if Germany went soft with Greece, it was felt that that would give France an excuse to tap German money even more than it already does. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jun/17/greece-debt-crisis-bank-exposed https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jun/17/greece...