4 ms·

Columbus was considered to be a insanely violent man even by his own men, at the standard of the time... nothing like Jefferson whatsoever.

by fipple 8y ago

moate 8y ago
I agree. It would be terrible to say that Columbus and Jefferson were on the same level of shitbaggery in almost any way. My point was that the same "we have to defend our past" tropes tend to come out when attacks on either happen. You see it as well in people who defend the men of the confederacy. Any statement that "these are complex men who did things that led to our current world order, some good others bad" is met as an attack. There is a group of people who look at history and feel that everything is black and white, good vs evil, and that's simply not the case. Columbus, despite being a violent and horrid person, changed history. Jefferson, despite being the Author of the Declaration of Independence, owned other humans.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >Any statement that "these are complex men who did things that led to our current world order, some good others bad" is met as an attack. Except that's not how the statement is put forth. Instead we get something along the lines of "so and so was a murderous scumbag racist who blah blah blah, oh by the way you're a racist for not accepting that at face value". That doesn't exactly promote civil discourse about changing the status quo as to how so and so is viewed. This isn't something of great importance to the overwhelming majority of the population and it doesn't play much of any role in most people's identity which explains to some extent why the discourse is dominated by a bunch of extremists on both sides (aka the few people who care) yelling at each other but that doesn't make those extremists right.
  - moate 8y ago
    Well I'm glad I didn't call you a racist then so we can have an actual discussion of where these men actually fall. Columbus was a clown, imperialism is bad, rape and enslavement are reprehensible, celebrating Columbus seems like a poor choice. Any thoughts?
leephillips 8y ago
There is a parallel here. Jefferson was so cruel to his slaves that his friends tried to prevail upon him to be more considerate, for example in suggesting that he might reconsider his policy of breaking apart families for no particular reason other than the fun of causing suffering. People are made of many parts. Jefferson was brilliant and farsighted, but also a vicious, selfish monster -- by the standards of his time.

Columbus was considered to be a insanely violent man even by his own men, at the standard of the time... nothing like Jefferson whatsoever.

by fipple 8y ago

Columbus was considered to be a insanely violent man even by his own men, at the standard of the time... nothing like Jefferson whatsoever.

moate 8y ago

I agree. It would be terrible to say that Columbus and Jefferson were on the same level of shitbaggery in almost any way. My point was that the same "we have to defend our past" tropes tend to come out when attacks on either happen. You see it as well in people who defend the men of the confederacy. Any statement that "these are complex men who did things that led to our current world order, some good others bad" is met as an attack. There is a group of people who look at history and feel that everything is black and white, good vs evil, and that's simply not the case. Columbus, despite being a violent and horrid person, changed history. Jefferson, despite being the Author of the Declaration of Independence, owned other humans.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>Any statement that "these are complex men who did things that led to our current world order, some good others bad" is met as an attack. Except that's not how the statement is put forth. Instead we get something along the lines of "so and so was a murderous scumbag racist who blah blah blah, oh by the way you're a racist for not accepting that at face value". That doesn't exactly promote civil discourse about changing the status quo as to how so and so is viewed. This isn't something of great importance to the overwhelming majority of the population and it doesn't play much of any role in most people's identity which explains to some extent why the discourse is dominated by a bunch of extremists on both sides (aka the few people who care) yelling at each other but that doesn't make those extremists right.
- moate 8y ago
  Well I'm glad I didn't call you a racist then so we can have an actual discussion of where these men actually fall. Columbus was a clown, imperialism is bad, rape and enslavement are reprehensible, celebrating Columbus seems like a poor choice. Any thoughts?

leephillips 8y ago

There is a parallel here. Jefferson was so cruel to his slaves that his friends tried to prevail upon him to be more considerate, for example in suggesting that he might reconsider his policy of breaking apart families for no particular reason other than the fun of causing suffering. People are made of many parts. Jefferson was brilliant and farsighted, but also a vicious, selfish monster -- by the standards of his time.