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it's about preemptively conditioning the west into accepting the mass arrival of "climate refugees" that's going to happen no matter what.

wlll 8y ago
> it's about preemptively conditioning the west Who is doing this pre-conditioning? > into accepting the mass arrival of "climate refugees" that's going to happen no matter what. So, either climate change exists, and this will cause refugees (as will anything that causes a place to become unsupporting of human life, war, famine etc. etc.) Or, climate change doesn't exist, or does but is exaggerated, and the "climate refugees" are going to be forced on us by some unmentioned power with climate change being used as the excuse. If do belive in climate change but don't particularly like immigrants then your only real option is to prevent climate change. People will leave their homes when the place they live becomes unlivable (for instance, in the case of Bangladesh, underwater). This is a hard fact, it's not something unique to these people, it's what everyone would do. Only the insane would stay behind railing against the encroaching ocean. If you don't believe in climate change (despite the overwhelming evidence that it exists) then you're left with some sort of conspiracy theory that refugees are somehow being sent to punish you and climate change is being used as an excuse. This is fantasy, and there's not much that can be done to help you in this situation because what you're taking part in at this point is a religious belief (the evidence points to X but you're going to believe Y).
- candiodari 8y ago
  As pointed out before, there is no way to stop catastrophic climate change, so no action there will be effective. That's ... bullshit, according to these reports. I don't know how you can even suggest such a thing. So, same question: what about the people that realize that mass immigration will destroy the labour markets that are their livelihoods ? > conspiracy theory that refugees are somehow being sent to punish you As pointed out above, any of the many "precariously employed" people in the west are under the very real threat of their jobs getting destroyed by mass immigration. Add to that people dependent on the social support systems in their respective countries. Also it is pretty obvious that any job that will at some point come under threat from AI already is under threat from mass immigration. That's ~80% of all jobs according to some studies. We need to find ways to fix the situation everywhere in the world, preventing immigration in the first place, if we want to have decent labour conditions. "Preventing climate change" is not that. Closing borders, while unpopular, is a solution, in that it incentivizes the problematic countries' populations to fix their governments.
  - wlll 8y ago
    > As pointed out before, there is no way to stop catastrophic climate change I don't see where you've said that, so you might want to cite something here. > so no action there will be effective. Again, I can't see where you've said this. > That's ... bullshit, according to these reports. I don't know how you can even suggest such a thing. Wait, I don't understand. Are you saying that it's "there is no way to stop catastrophic climate change" and then immediately contradicting yourself by saying "it's bullshit" that "there is no way to stop catastrophic climate change", because that certainly seems like what you're saying. It's possible that I've misunderstood what you've said, so you might want to clarify as your opening to this comment is incredibly confusing. Regardless, we can take a look at these reports and see what we can see! <snip> So apprently this bit was too long for a HN comment, so I gisted it: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/wjessop/e7fdb82ca0832fe5b5bcacd33f2b2832/raw/05249a67983308d6b5e120d15f2bde0fc542ef45/gistfile1.txt https://gist.githubusercontent.com/wjessop/e7fdb82ca0832fe5b... </snip> So what does this all tell us? It seems that most scientists investigating climate change are finding a link between human activity and the sorts of temperature increases we're hearing about, 2+°C. Even if you think that the chances are slim that we can correct this, it seems like it's worth a go. It's better to slam into the wall at 30 miles per hour than to just give up because crashing into the wall is inevitable and so crash into the wall at 40, at least in my view. So, I'm going to skip over the other stuff you mentioned, because this has gone on far too long now: > So, same question: what about the people that realize that mass immigration will destroy the labour markets that are their livelihoods ? They're not going to be happy about it? If climate change displace people then they will move. You can tell them they can't all you like, and you can complain until you are blue in the face, but if their country is underater, or it is impossible to grow food or find water they will leave. > As pointed out above, any of the many "precariously employed" people in the west are under the very real threat of their jobs getting destroyed by mass immigration. Add to that people dependent on the social support systems in their respective countries. Once more, if areas of the world become inhabitable people will turn up, you might not like it, but it's going to happen. > Also it is pretty obvious that any job that will at some point come under threat from AI already is under threat from mass immigration. That's ~80% of all jobs according to some studies. Not sure how that's relevant to climate change. > We need to find ways to fix the situation everywhere in the world Yes, climate change seems (at least given the wealth of evidence that it exists, and is of the scale widely suggested) to be that problem. > preventing immigration in the first place if we want to have decent labour conditions. That's just your opinion really. > "Preventing climate change" is not that. I disagree. > Closing borders, while unpopular, is a solution, in that it incentivizes the problematic countries' populations to fix their governments. Well, not really. Governments don't have their own climate. If the US/China etc. piss away the climate and it affects the rest of the world, then there's not much "their governments" can do about it. Also, like I said before, if your country is basically underwater, or now too hot to grow food or find water, people are going to leave and go somewhere else. Refugee camps are going to get further and further away from the encrouching inhospitable areas and closer and closer to you wether you like it or not. You can "close the borders" but that is only going to work up to a point, and if you don't actually attempt to fix the problem then fixing the symptom of the problem isn't going to help forever.
ergothus 8y ago
Your honest position is that I want to "precondition" you to accept future refugees rather than that I actually trust the overwhelming scientific consensus and want to try and prevent the need for refugees at all? Even if you think the science is wrong, you think everyone trusting it is doing so to forward some massive conspiracy? Please point out where I misunderstood you.

wlll 8y ago

> it's about preemptively conditioning the west Who is doing this pre-conditioning? > into accepting the mass arrival of "climate refugees" that's going to happen no matter what. So, either climate change exists, and this will cause refugees (as will anything that causes a place to become unsupporting of human life, war, famine etc. etc.) Or, climate change doesn't exist, or does but is exaggerated, and the "climate refugees" are going to be forced on us by some unmentioned power with climate change being used as the excuse. If do belive in climate change but don't particularly like immigrants then your only real option is to prevent climate change. People will leave their homes when the place they live becomes unlivable (for instance, in the case of Bangladesh, underwater). This is a hard fact, it's not something unique to these people, it's what everyone would do. Only the insane would stay behind railing against the encroaching ocean. If you don't believe in climate change (despite the overwhelming evidence that it exists) then you're left with some sort of conspiracy theory that refugees are somehow being sent to punish you and climate change is being used as an excuse. This is fantasy, and there's not much that can be done to help you in this situation because what you're taking part in at this point is a religious belief (the evidence points to X but you're going to believe Y).

candiodari 8y ago
As pointed out before, there is no way to stop catastrophic climate change, so no action there will be effective. That's ... bullshit, according to these reports. I don't know how you can even suggest such a thing. So, same question: what about the people that realize that mass immigration will destroy the labour markets that are their livelihoods ? > conspiracy theory that refugees are somehow being sent to punish you As pointed out above, any of the many "precariously employed" people in the west are under the very real threat of their jobs getting destroyed by mass immigration. Add to that people dependent on the social support systems in their respective countries. Also it is pretty obvious that any job that will at some point come under threat from AI already is under threat from mass immigration. That's ~80% of all jobs according to some studies. We need to find ways to fix the situation everywhere in the world, preventing immigration in the first place, if we want to have decent labour conditions. "Preventing climate change" is not that. Closing borders, while unpopular, is a solution, in that it incentivizes the problematic countries' populations to fix their governments.
- wlll 8y ago
  > As pointed out before, there is no way to stop catastrophic climate change I don't see where you've said that, so you might want to cite something here. > so no action there will be effective. Again, I can't see where you've said this. > That's ... bullshit, according to these reports. I don't know how you can even suggest such a thing. Wait, I don't understand. Are you saying that it's "there is no way to stop catastrophic climate change" and then immediately contradicting yourself by saying "it's bullshit" that "there is no way to stop catastrophic climate change", because that certainly seems like what you're saying. It's possible that I've misunderstood what you've said, so you might want to clarify as your opening to this comment is incredibly confusing. Regardless, we can take a look at these reports and see what we can see! <snip> So apprently this bit was too long for a HN comment, so I gisted it: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/wjessop/e7fdb82ca0832fe5b5bcacd33f2b2832/raw/05249a67983308d6b5e120d15f2bde0fc542ef45/gistfile1.txt https://gist.githubusercontent.com/wjessop/e7fdb82ca0832fe5b... </snip> So what does this all tell us? It seems that most scientists investigating climate change are finding a link between human activity and the sorts of temperature increases we're hearing about, 2+°C. Even if you think that the chances are slim that we can correct this, it seems like it's worth a go. It's better to slam into the wall at 30 miles per hour than to just give up because crashing into the wall is inevitable and so crash into the wall at 40, at least in my view. So, I'm going to skip over the other stuff you mentioned, because this has gone on far too long now: > So, same question: what about the people that realize that mass immigration will destroy the labour markets that are their livelihoods ? They're not going to be happy about it? If climate change displace people then they will move. You can tell them they can't all you like, and you can complain until you are blue in the face, but if their country is underater, or it is impossible to grow food or find water they will leave. > As pointed out above, any of the many "precariously employed" people in the west are under the very real threat of their jobs getting destroyed by mass immigration. Add to that people dependent on the social support systems in their respective countries. Once more, if areas of the world become inhabitable people will turn up, you might not like it, but it's going to happen. > Also it is pretty obvious that any job that will at some point come under threat from AI already is under threat from mass immigration. That's ~80% of all jobs according to some studies. Not sure how that's relevant to climate change. > We need to find ways to fix the situation everywhere in the world Yes, climate change seems (at least given the wealth of evidence that it exists, and is of the scale widely suggested) to be that problem. > preventing immigration in the first place if we want to have decent labour conditions. That's just your opinion really. > "Preventing climate change" is not that. I disagree. > Closing borders, while unpopular, is a solution, in that it incentivizes the problematic countries' populations to fix their governments. Well, not really. Governments don't have their own climate. If the US/China etc. piss away the climate and it affects the rest of the world, then there's not much "their governments" can do about it. Also, like I said before, if your country is basically underwater, or now too hot to grow food or find water, people are going to leave and go somewhere else. Refugee camps are going to get further and further away from the encrouching inhospitable areas and closer and closer to you wether you like it or not. You can "close the borders" but that is only going to work up to a point, and if you don't actually attempt to fix the problem then fixing the symptom of the problem isn't going to help forever.

ergothus 8y ago

Your honest position is that I want to "precondition" you to accept future refugees rather than that I actually trust the overwhelming scientific consensus and want to try and prevent the need for refugees at all? Even if you think the science is wrong, you think everyone trusting it is doing so to forward some massive conspiracy? Please point out where I misunderstood you.