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I think the biggest problem is their training. I was on a base police detail as a temporary duty for about a year and I often see things like this and the polic

I think the biggest problem is their training. I was on a base police detail as a temporary duty for about a year and I often see things like this and the police act exactly as the training I had taught. The "force escalation" went ask -> tell -> make, and they try to instill a paranoia that everyone has a concealed gun by default and should be treated so. I think I have the old training manual laying around somewhere still. Training about recognizing and handling disabled persons should be mandatory, I received none. Also, clearly what is considered "deadly force" should be re-evaluated. Injecting someone with sedatives without knowing their medical history definitely seems like it should be on that list. One of most disturbing things I remember from the training was an instructor telling us "It doesen't matter what really happened, what matters is how you articulate what happened."

nervousvarun 8y ago
We desperately, desperately need improved non-lethal deterrents for our police force in the U.S. This always has seemed like an enormous industry for someone out there to disrupt.
- PostOnce 8y ago
  The story already opens with an unarmed man in the shower in his own home being repeatedly tased. If your problem is you're punching people in the head too often, the solution isn't to wear soft gloves, it's to stop punching people. How to achieve that is still a matter of debate.
  - brennebeck 8y ago
    I read the gp comment as basically: desperately needing improvement through the entire non-lethal ‘stack’. This would include new training materials, R&D for better equipment, and so on.
- ppseafield 8y ago
  The person in the first story was "non-lethally" tazed over and over, 15 times before being dragged out of the shower and injected with multiple sedatives. Any "non-lethal deterrents" applied that aggressively are still gonna kill people.
  - 08-15 8y ago
    And if they don't, they should be regarded as "cruel and unusual punishment", colloquially known as torture. Seriously, policemen who repeatedly fire a tazer at their victim, rendering him unable to control any of his muscles (including the sphincter), while screaming "STOP RESISTING!!", should be locked away indefinitely.
  - sigstoat 8y ago
    tasers aren't considered "non lethal", they're "less lethal", because yeah, they kill people all the time. if somebody is advocating "non lethal" tools, and you start in on tasers, you're not even on the same page.
    - ppseafield 8y ago
      My point was that if the police are going to act so aggressively, it won't matter how cuddly their tools are. Pillows aren't generally considered lethal, but if you suffocate someone with one....
- loriverkutya 8y ago
  You don't need more non-lethal deterrents, you need to educate your police officers about how to deal with a human without shouting and threatening. And nope, no industry needs to be disrupted, no industry needs ignorant individuals without domain knowledge to reinvent the wheel or replace human interaction with a machine interaction, 5 star ranking system and all your personal data sold away.
- Zigurd 8y ago
  Deescalation training and aligning incentives with good outcomes should be put in place before technology solutions are called for.
tekkk 8y ago
It makes me sad to see that is the current culture of US police force. It would interesting to know why and how the European and American cultures have grown apart so considerably on this matter. I think in 19th and 20th century we were both pretty blood-thirsty although I'm not sure were the American police force then already considerably more accustomed to use lethal force. Now it seems that it's such an integral part of the American police officer's identity that the stereotype already feeds itself by people expecting them to behave that way and them in turn behaving as they expect them. Of course in the US the people have more guns so police for sure has more reason to fear for getting shot but the use of lethal force still seems excessive.
- hvs 8y ago
  A lot of this comes from the "SWAT-mentality" that began infecting police forces in the 70s and 80s. The police went from a community organization to a paramilitary one.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  Look at the rate of police gettig murdered on the job in America and compare it with Western Europe. That may play a role in the divergence.
nerdponx 8y ago
I feel like the default should be "this person is mentally unstable and might have a weapon" instead of "this person is a potential enemy combatant". Then again, the whole justice system could use an update in that direction.
- brennebeck 8y ago
  While I do agree, I’m curious how you think that might alleviate some of these issues (specifically)? Wouldn’t a mentally unstable person with a weapon still be considered a high risk threat? Potentially even more so than a combatant, as police aren’t necessarily equipped to understand mental conditions.
  - nerdponx 8y ago
    My thinking is that it implies officers will be training to respond to people that can't or won't listen to reason, or have limited ability to feel pain or comprehend instructions. But this is all armchair speculation. How do they deal with this kind of thing in other countries?
sschueller 8y ago
The most import thing that is not taught is deescalation. It is vital for Police to take control of a situation but instead they general yell and shout increasing the tension between parties turning a controllable situation into chaos. Many people to not respond well to threats and shouting.
- Datenstrom 8y ago
  My training required shouting in all of the drills. The reasoning that was given was that it was required to make sure any and all bystanders and recording devices heard you clearly so there would be evidence that you followed procedure and that they did not follow commands. Perhaps this is now outdated with the introduction of body cams but I would bet it is still taught that way.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  A while ago my car got hit by car that had run a red light. It was a huge impact without any warning and I was pretty shaken (probably a concussion). When a cop asked me for my license I couldn't really compute this request and gave him random stuff from my wallet. He started shouting "Sir, show me your license" which I understood even less and kept giving him credit cards and library cards . Thank God another cop came by and pointed calmly to the thing in my wallet they wanted to see. I can't even imagine how confused I would be if I had people yelling at me while I am in the shower.
emptybits 8y ago
> Training about recognizing and handling disabled persons should be mandatory Sure, but in this case, the man's ability level doesn't even seem relevant. Officers see a nonviolent man taking a shower. No weapons seen by officers. No weapons reported in the 911 call. Man is naked, also suggesting nothing concealed. Man is acting unusually but does not appear to be harming himself and is not uttering any threats to officers. Yet a team of armed and armoured law enforcement officers think they are at risk? They respond with electric shock, physical force, and injecting drugs! The ability level of the man is irrelevant. These are thugs and I think their problem may be deeper than gaps in their training.
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  What if they were telling the truth and they really thought they were helping him?
  - 08-15 8y ago
    Then they are too stupid to be in the business of helping people.
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      Or they were trained that helping people means making them compliant by any means necessary so they can be brought to the hospital safely.
      - 08-15 8y ago
        That's not what they did. They brought him to the morgue. You know, where I grew up, it's very simple: if your actions directly result in the death of another human, you go to jail by default. "I only wanted to help" is a weak excuse, and "I only wanted to help by injecting a drug" gets you a longer sentence. As it should be.
        daveFNbuck 8y ago
08-15 8y ago
You are making excuses for feral animals who used a cattle prod to torture a naked, unarmed man before proceeding to poison him. And your instructor is part of the problem and should be wearing orange, not a police uniform.
maxxxxx 8y ago
"The "force escalation" went ask -> tell -> make, and they try to instill a paranoia that everyone has a concealed gun by default and should be treated so." That's in line with what I saw when I was military police during my German service and had to interact with American MPs. Their strategy was often (not always) to go in directly and if anybody resisted they immediately applied force. Us Germans on the other hand did almost everything we could do to avoid force. It was definitely a noticeable difference in attitude. The Americans also spent a huge amount of time on the shooting range whereas we got there maybe twice a year.

nervousvarun 8y ago

We desperately, desperately need improved non-lethal deterrents for our police force in the U.S. This always has seemed like an enormous industry for someone out there to disrupt.

PostOnce 8y ago
The story already opens with an unarmed man in the shower in his own home being repeatedly tased. If your problem is you're punching people in the head too often, the solution isn't to wear soft gloves, it's to stop punching people. How to achieve that is still a matter of debate.
- brennebeck 8y ago
  I read the gp comment as basically: desperately needing improvement through the entire non-lethal ‘stack’. This would include new training materials, R&D for better equipment, and so on.
ppseafield 8y ago
The person in the first story was "non-lethally" tazed over and over, 15 times before being dragged out of the shower and injected with multiple sedatives. Any "non-lethal deterrents" applied that aggressively are still gonna kill people.
- 08-15 8y ago
  And if they don't, they should be regarded as "cruel and unusual punishment", colloquially known as torture. Seriously, policemen who repeatedly fire a tazer at their victim, rendering him unable to control any of his muscles (including the sphincter), while screaming "STOP RESISTING!!", should be locked away indefinitely.
- sigstoat 8y ago
  tasers aren't considered "non lethal", they're "less lethal", because yeah, they kill people all the time. if somebody is advocating "non lethal" tools, and you start in on tasers, you're not even on the same page.
  - ppseafield 8y ago
    My point was that if the police are going to act so aggressively, it won't matter how cuddly their tools are. Pillows aren't generally considered lethal, but if you suffocate someone with one....
loriverkutya 8y ago
You don't need more non-lethal deterrents, you need to educate your police officers about how to deal with a human without shouting and threatening. And nope, no industry needs to be disrupted, no industry needs ignorant individuals without domain knowledge to reinvent the wheel or replace human interaction with a machine interaction, 5 star ranking system and all your personal data sold away.
Zigurd 8y ago
Deescalation training and aligning incentives with good outcomes should be put in place before technology solutions are called for.

tekkk 8y ago

It makes me sad to see that is the current culture of US police force. It would interesting to know why and how the European and American cultures have grown apart so considerably on this matter. I think in 19th and 20th century we were both pretty blood-thirsty although I'm not sure were the American police force then already considerably more accustomed to use lethal force. Now it seems that it's such an integral part of the American police officer's identity that the stereotype already feeds itself by people expecting them to behave that way and them in turn behaving as they expect them. Of course in the US the people have more guns so police for sure has more reason to fear for getting shot but the use of lethal force still seems excessive.

hvs 8y ago
A lot of this comes from the "SWAT-mentality" that began infecting police forces in the 70s and 80s. The police went from a community organization to a paramilitary one.
oh_sigh 8y ago
Look at the rate of police gettig murdered on the job in America and compare it with Western Europe. That may play a role in the divergence.

nerdponx 8y ago

I feel like the default should be "this person is mentally unstable and might have a weapon" instead of "this person is a potential enemy combatant". Then again, the whole justice system could use an update in that direction.

brennebeck 8y ago
While I do agree, I’m curious how you think that might alleviate some of these issues (specifically)? Wouldn’t a mentally unstable person with a weapon still be considered a high risk threat? Potentially even more so than a combatant, as police aren’t necessarily equipped to understand mental conditions.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  My thinking is that it implies officers will be training to respond to people that can't or won't listen to reason, or have limited ability to feel pain or comprehend instructions. But this is all armchair speculation. How do they deal with this kind of thing in other countries?

sschueller 8y ago

The most import thing that is not taught is deescalation. It is vital for Police to take control of a situation but instead they general yell and shout increasing the tension between parties turning a controllable situation into chaos. Many people to not respond well to threats and shouting.

Datenstrom 8y ago
My training required shouting in all of the drills. The reasoning that was given was that it was required to make sure any and all bystanders and recording devices heard you clearly so there would be evidence that you followed procedure and that they did not follow commands. Perhaps this is now outdated with the introduction of body cams but I would bet it is still taught that way.
maxxxxx 8y ago
A while ago my car got hit by car that had run a red light. It was a huge impact without any warning and I was pretty shaken (probably a concussion). When a cop asked me for my license I couldn't really compute this request and gave him random stuff from my wallet. He started shouting "Sir, show me your license" which I understood even less and kept giving him credit cards and library cards . Thank God another cop came by and pointed calmly to the thing in my wallet they wanted to see. I can't even imagine how confused I would be if I had people yelling at me while I am in the shower.

emptybits 8y ago

> Training about recognizing and handling disabled persons should be mandatory Sure, but in this case, the man's ability level doesn't even seem relevant. Officers see a nonviolent man taking a shower. No weapons seen by officers. No weapons reported in the 911 call. Man is naked, also suggesting nothing concealed. Man is acting unusually but does not appear to be harming himself and is not uttering any threats to officers. Yet a team of armed and armoured law enforcement officers think they are at risk? They respond with electric shock, physical force, and injecting drugs! The ability level of the man is irrelevant. These are thugs and I think their problem may be deeper than gaps in their training.

daveFNbuck 8y ago
What if they were telling the truth and they really thought they were helping him?
- 08-15 8y ago
  Then they are too stupid to be in the business of helping people.
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    Or they were trained that helping people means making them compliant by any means necessary so they can be brought to the hospital safely.
    - 08-15 8y ago
      That's not what they did. They brought him to the morgue. You know, where I grew up, it's very simple: if your actions directly result in the death of another human, you go to jail by default. "I only wanted to help" is a weak excuse, and "I only wanted to help by injecting a drug" gets you a longer sentence. As it should be.
      - daveFNbuck 8y ago

08-15 8y ago

You are making excuses for feral animals who used a cattle prod to torture a naked, unarmed man before proceeding to poison him. And your instructor is part of the problem and should be wearing orange, not a police uniform.

maxxxxx 8y ago

"The "force escalation" went ask -> tell -> make, and they try to instill a paranoia that everyone has a concealed gun by default and should be treated so." That's in line with what I saw when I was military police during my German service and had to interact with American MPs. Their strategy was often (not always) to go in directly and if anybody resisted they immediately applied force. Us Germans on the other hand did almost everything we could do to avoid force. It was definitely a noticeable difference in attitude. The Americans also spent a huge amount of time on the shooting range whereas we got there maybe twice a year.