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Which of the above services do you think wouldn't exist if Google avoided less tax? You're going to have to explain to me how this is relevant. What Google is

by tkahn6 16y ago

Which of the above services do you think wouldn't exist if Google avoided less tax? You're going to have to explain to me how this is relevant. What Google is doing is legal which means that you're trying to make this an argument about ethics. My point is that Google provides real value to millions of people around the world and has the resources, both human and monetary, to make real progress in many areas of technology which then benefit you and me. It benefits me more to have the money stay at Google than go to a failed school system or failing healthcare system.

bonaldi 16y ago
By adopting the "Don't be evil" motto Google makes this about ethics. If you say that you are going to hold yourself to an ethical standard, that means you will be judged by your ethics, not by your adherence to the letter of the law. But really, the continuing argument that because you like Google Maps it's therefore better that Google gets to keep all of its tax euros out of the hands of underfunded public services is close to incoherent. Unless you can show that those services are in the same sort of existential danger as high-end cancer treatment is in the UK, the argument is specious.
- tkahn6 16y ago
  But really, the continuing argument that because you like Google Maps it's therefore better that Google gets to keep all of its tax euros out of the hands of underfunded public services is close to incoherent. Unless you can show that those services are in the same sort of existential danger as high-end cancer treatment is in the UK, the argument is specious. a. I did not say that Google shouldn't pay any taxes. b. Whether you believe something to be 'underfunded' is a matter of perspective. c. Not funding cancer research is not equivalent to not doing good or creating value. I think you do have a point in that Google's slogan does make this about ethics. I still maintain that Google can do more good with more efficiency than any government.
  - bonaldi 16y ago
    I still maintain that Google can do more good with more efficiency than any government. That's fine, but there are plenty of other people who disagree with the assertion. If the money is in the hands of the government, at least those other voices get a say in how it is spent. The opportunity cost for anything you spend $3bn on is very high. A government could choose to spend it on cancer research or space ships. Google can really only spend it on a very narrow range of products -- and can't combine it with other serious numbers required to do the really heavy lifting, like that required to fix the disastrous public plumbing in the US. If Google paying its taxes would mean that it couldn't do all the stuff it currently is, that's one thing. But they've got $33bn sitting in the bank. They can more than afford to pay their taxes and continue creating Wave and AdWords.
    - kragen 16y ago
      If we're going to be strictly factual about it, Google is actually spending money on cancer research and spaceships; http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/oncampus/08/10/google.html http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/oncampus/08/10/google.html describes one of a number of grants that are going to researchers on, among other things, cancer; Larry Brilliant himself suffered from thyroid cancer. Also, Google bought SpaceShipOne, which is now on display at the Googleplex. Presumably Scaled Composites is using the proceeds from the sale for spaceship research. Sergey is going to space in a private space flight next year, assuming all goes well: http://www.spaceadventures.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.viewnews&newsid=615 http://www.spaceadventures.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.vie... There are many other investments in cancer research and space travel being made by individual Googlers. However, it is perhaps more to the point that both Google Search and Google Academic are crucial research tools for medical research and for aerospace engineering, as for many other fields. Both directly and through its employees, Google is also funding substantial applied research in crucial areas such as renewable energy production, genomics, public health, and ground transportation. I don't know what you mean by "disastrous public plumbing in the US". My experience with US municipal water supplies and sewers during the 29 years that I lived there was that they were inexpensive, reliable, safe, and efficient. My experience with water supplies (and sometimes sewers) in other countries has been much worse. A personal note: I haven't ever tried to work for Google because of, essentially, ethical concerns: I am in danger of having to live in a world where a large fraction of our communications are intermediated by a single company, and I think Google's cultish secrecy is corrosive to the values of Silicon Valley. However, I think Google should only be dinged for its real faults, not imagined ones.
codexon 16y ago
Google's only unique offering is search All the other stuff, maps, email, translate, etc... were incremental improvements of already available and competitive free services. You also neglected to list the dozens of flops that Google undoubtly spent millions, perhaps billions on. Remember Wave, Answers, Jaiku, Dodgeball, etc...? And how much of those billions of unpaid taxes went to buying out the competition and thus reducing the capitalist drive for improvement? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Google http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Google
- danenania 16y ago
  From an economic perspective, that's an argument in favor of Google. When private companies miscalculate or mismanage, their products and investments don't make profits and fail, thus freeing up resources for better uses. When government programs are poorly run, they go over budget and often use that as a justification for asking for MORE money. There is no incentive to be efficient or diligent when someone else foots the bill.
  - codexon 16y ago
    You make it sound like no government program has ever been cut or removed. You also make it sound like private companies can do no wrong, and that customers always act in their best interest like rational agents. This is a fallacy learned in every ECON 101 class. Millions, even billions of dollars are siphoned off in people buying useless products like Acai Berry or junk bonds labled as AAA that do nothing for society or even themselves. Now imagine what other useless industries these people would invest given that a company like Google could make so many flops? That is essentially X times more waste where X is the percentage that these junk dealers reinvest. As someone said more eloquently than I have: "Why do I need your government nanny state telling me how to build my cars? If people who drive my cars die, then they won't buy more cars. THE FREE MARKET WORKS PEOPLE."
    - noglorp 16y ago
      Hey now, just because anti-oxidants aren't magical doesn't mean they aren't freakin anti-oxidants!
notahacker 16y ago
We seem to be going round in circles here. As someone who has received healthcare and education for free courtesy of the UK government I find the earlier claim that this is of less value to me than a search engine and associated apps, even though I use them daily to be fairly ridiculous. Taking your arguments about us being better off with Google managing more money to their logical conclusion, would you prefer to pay your taxes directly to them, without any say in what they spend their money on? Continuing to restate that Google provides a significant amount of value as acknowledged in my original post (and profiting directly from most of the value-adding-services to the extent that such services would continue to be invested in at a much higher tax rate) fails to defend the original bold assertion that "Anyone who thinks that England would do a better job with the money than Google hasn't been to England". As I'm a British citizen who has not only been to England but actually lives there and uses both Google and our government funded services, I feel I'm in a good place to dispute that claim. Right now the principal problem with UK public services is a shortage of money; not a problem for Google and their profit-generating services. Google is not going to die if it takes them a little longer to generate shareholder return; people are going to die if they don't get hospital beds. Believing in the benefits to humanity from successful, innovative free enterprises != believing they and their investors should keep all the money. Moreover even if one accepts the claim that Google and people smart enough to invest in Google are on average better at allocating resources equitably than the government I think it could be argued to be ethically dubious for them to pay lower tax rates than less profitable companies with equally ambitious and beneficial goals. Someone still has to foot the tax bill
Super_Jambo 16y ago
Here in the UK, we do not have a failing healthcare system, I would like to see corporations not waste their money paying people to do utterly non-productive work (like finding and exploiting tax loop holes).
olliesaunders 16y ago
You almost seem to be proposing that, had this loophole not been available, you would have Google government funded for the same amount because the services Google provides are better than those provided by the government.

by tkahn6 16y ago

bonaldi 16y ago

By adopting the "Don't be evil" motto Google makes this about ethics. If you say that you are going to hold yourself to an ethical standard, that means you will be judged by your ethics, not by your adherence to the letter of the law. But really, the continuing argument that because you like Google Maps it's therefore better that Google gets to keep all of its tax euros out of the hands of underfunded public services is close to incoherent. Unless you can show that those services are in the same sort of existential danger as high-end cancer treatment is in the UK, the argument is specious.

tkahn6 16y ago
But really, the continuing argument that because you like Google Maps it's therefore better that Google gets to keep all of its tax euros out of the hands of underfunded public services is close to incoherent. Unless you can show that those services are in the same sort of existential danger as high-end cancer treatment is in the UK, the argument is specious. a. I did not say that Google shouldn't pay any taxes. b. Whether you believe something to be 'underfunded' is a matter of perspective. c. Not funding cancer research is not equivalent to not doing good or creating value. I think you do have a point in that Google's slogan does make this about ethics. I still maintain that Google can do more good with more efficiency than any government.
- bonaldi 16y ago
  I still maintain that Google can do more good with more efficiency than any government. That's fine, but there are plenty of other people who disagree with the assertion. If the money is in the hands of the government, at least those other voices get a say in how it is spent. The opportunity cost for anything you spend $3bn on is very high. A government could choose to spend it on cancer research or space ships. Google can really only spend it on a very narrow range of products -- and can't combine it with other serious numbers required to do the really heavy lifting, like that required to fix the disastrous public plumbing in the US. If Google paying its taxes would mean that it couldn't do all the stuff it currently is, that's one thing. But they've got $33bn sitting in the bank. They can more than afford to pay their taxes and continue creating Wave and AdWords.
  - kragen 16y ago
    If we're going to be strictly factual about it, Google is actually spending money on cancer research and spaceships; http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/oncampus/08/10/google.html http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/oncampus/08/10/google.html describes one of a number of grants that are going to researchers on, among other things, cancer; Larry Brilliant himself suffered from thyroid cancer. Also, Google bought SpaceShipOne, which is now on display at the Googleplex. Presumably Scaled Composites is using the proceeds from the sale for spaceship research. Sergey is going to space in a private space flight next year, assuming all goes well: http://www.spaceadventures.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.viewnews&newsid=615 http://www.spaceadventures.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.vie... There are many other investments in cancer research and space travel being made by individual Googlers. However, it is perhaps more to the point that both Google Search and Google Academic are crucial research tools for medical research and for aerospace engineering, as for many other fields. Both directly and through its employees, Google is also funding substantial applied research in crucial areas such as renewable energy production, genomics, public health, and ground transportation. I don't know what you mean by "disastrous public plumbing in the US". My experience with US municipal water supplies and sewers during the 29 years that I lived there was that they were inexpensive, reliable, safe, and efficient. My experience with water supplies (and sometimes sewers) in other countries has been much worse. A personal note: I haven't ever tried to work for Google because of, essentially, ethical concerns: I am in danger of having to live in a world where a large fraction of our communications are intermediated by a single company, and I think Google's cultish secrecy is corrosive to the values of Silicon Valley. However, I think Google should only be dinged for its real faults, not imagined ones.

codexon 16y ago

Google's only unique offering is search All the other stuff, maps, email, translate, etc... were incremental improvements of already available and competitive free services. You also neglected to list the dozens of flops that Google undoubtly spent millions, perhaps billions on. Remember Wave, Answers, Jaiku, Dodgeball, etc...? And how much of those billions of unpaid taxes went to buying out the competition and thus reducing the capitalist drive for improvement? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Google http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Google

danenania 16y ago
From an economic perspective, that's an argument in favor of Google. When private companies miscalculate or mismanage, their products and investments don't make profits and fail, thus freeing up resources for better uses. When government programs are poorly run, they go over budget and often use that as a justification for asking for MORE money. There is no incentive to be efficient or diligent when someone else foots the bill.
- codexon 16y ago
  You make it sound like no government program has ever been cut or removed. You also make it sound like private companies can do no wrong, and that customers always act in their best interest like rational agents. This is a fallacy learned in every ECON 101 class. Millions, even billions of dollars are siphoned off in people buying useless products like Acai Berry or junk bonds labled as AAA that do nothing for society or even themselves. Now imagine what other useless industries these people would invest given that a company like Google could make so many flops? That is essentially X times more waste where X is the percentage that these junk dealers reinvest. As someone said more eloquently than I have: "Why do I need your government nanny state telling me how to build my cars? If people who drive my cars die, then they won't buy more cars. THE FREE MARKET WORKS PEOPLE."
  - noglorp 16y ago
    Hey now, just because anti-oxidants aren't magical doesn't mean they aren't freakin anti-oxidants!

notahacker 16y ago

We seem to be going round in circles here. As someone who has received healthcare and education for free courtesy of the UK government I find the earlier claim that this is of less value to me than a search engine and associated apps, even though I use them daily to be fairly ridiculous. Taking your arguments about us being better off with Google managing more money to their logical conclusion, would you prefer to pay your taxes directly to them, without any say in what they spend their money on? Continuing to restate that Google provides a significant amount of value as acknowledged in my original post (and profiting directly from most of the value-adding-services to the extent that such services would continue to be invested in at a much higher tax rate) fails to defend the original bold assertion that "Anyone who thinks that England would do a better job with the money than Google hasn't been to England". As I'm a British citizen who has not only been to England but actually lives there and uses both Google and our government funded services, I feel I'm in a good place to dispute that claim. Right now the principal problem with UK public services is a shortage of money; not a problem for Google and their profit-generating services. Google is not going to die if it takes them a little longer to generate shareholder return; people are going to die if they don't get hospital beds. Believing in the benefits to humanity from successful, innovative free enterprises != believing they and their investors should keep all the money. Moreover even if one accepts the claim that Google and people smart enough to invest in Google are on average better at allocating resources equitably than the government I think it could be argued to be ethically dubious for them to pay lower tax rates than less profitable companies with equally ambitious and beneficial goals. Someone still has to foot the tax bill

Super_Jambo 16y ago

Here in the UK, we do not have a failing healthcare system, I would like to see corporations not waste their money paying people to do utterly non-productive work (like finding and exploiting tax loop holes).

olliesaunders 16y ago

You almost seem to be proposing that, had this loophole not been available, you would have Google government funded for the same amount because the services Google provides are better than those provided by the government.