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> The myth that kids that age are all digital natives and hence much more adept at learning CS amd programming is wrong. This is unfortunately very true. It's

> The myth that kids that age are all digital natives and hence much more adept at learning CS amd programming is wrong. This is unfortunately very true. It's kinda sad seing my nephews and nieces struggling when using a desktop computer. I guess scrolling down on instagram and watching netflix doesn't teach you anything about computers.

chrisseaton 8y ago
> struggling when using a desktop computer They're not native with the desktop computer metaphor, but so what? Why does that matter? Why is desktop computing the true computing that identifies whether you're native or not? And of course, none of this has anything to do with computer science, does it? You can do good computer science with a desktop, a tablet, or a pen and paper.
- thrower123 8y ago
  Because doing real work requires using a desktop computer.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    I did my entire PhD and five years of a career without using a desktop computer whatsoever, using a laptop instead, so this isn't true is it.
    - thrower123 8y ago
      Well yeah, sure. Laptops and desktops are largely convergent. Smartphones and most tablets are considerably more gimped.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      In this context a laptop and desktop are the same.
    - commandlinefan 8y ago
      I think he meant instead of an ipad.
    - Double_a_92 8y ago
      I counted laptops as desktops here...
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        Well ok then how about running MATLAB on your iPad - you could do a lot of productive work using just that. https://www.mathworks.com/products/matlab-mobile.html https://www.mathworks.com/products/matlab-mobile.html
        AlexeyBrin 8y ago
        How many children have the money to buy a Matlab license ?
  - technomalogical 8y ago
    It does now. But will that be the case in the future? History seems to indicate that the interfaces and paradigms will continue to change. There will be an awkward period (now?) where you need to know both types of interfaces, but there may be a period where touch, voice, or other interfaces replace the now-archaic file cabinet metaphor that the desktop uses today. Look at Windows and all the metaphors that a child today has no context with which to relate: a manila folder, a file cabinet, a floppy disk, an address book, a wall calendar. It seems likely that this will change, and with it the need to understand today's (and that of the last 20-30 years) desktop computer.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  "You can do good computer science with a desktop, a tablet, or a pen and paper. " What development environments run well on a tablet?
  - dagw 8y ago
    I haven't tried it, but people say nice things about Swift Playground. If you add a keyboard and an internet connection you can also use any of the web based IDEs and programming notebooks out there.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      Why would you do this over a setup with real keyboards and a big screen? I couldn't imagine myself staring a tablet the whole day.
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        If you attach a Bluetooth keyboard and use a larger tablet what is the effective difference between that and a small laptop?
        gowld 8y ago
        Nothing, but that's disingenuous, because kids aren't hanging out with keyboards and >11inch screens.
        maxxxxx 8y ago
        Once we have 24" tablets maybe this would work for me.
      - dagw 8y ago
        Why would you do this over a setup with real keyboards and a big screen Given the choice I wouldn't, my point was more that only having access to an iPad is no reason to not be able to learn how to program.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
- Double_a_92 8y ago
  > Why is desktop computing the true computing that identifies whether you're native or not? It's the one platform that allows you to be really productive (at least in an office context). I personally already struggle when trying to write some proper longer text on a smartphone or table. I don't think I could comfortably write some nice Word letter with maybe some custom design on such a device. It maybe works out if you are some artist... Idk.
commandlinefan 8y ago
If anything, I would think that modern computers make it _harder_ to understand what's actually going on. I learned programming on a Commodore 64 - if you wanted to print a character on the screen, you wrote ("poked") a byte into a fixed memory address. If you wanted to read a character from the keyboard, you read ("peeked") a byte from a different fixed memory address. Being so close to the machine helped build an intuition about what was going on behind the scenes, so concepts like garbage collection and virtual memory made a lot more sense when I got around to learning them.

chrisseaton 8y ago

> struggling when using a desktop computer They're not native with the desktop computer metaphor, but so what? Why does that matter? Why is desktop computing the true computing that identifies whether you're native or not? And of course, none of this has anything to do with computer science, does it? You can do good computer science with a desktop, a tablet, or a pen and paper.

thrower123 8y ago
Because doing real work requires using a desktop computer.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  I did my entire PhD and five years of a career without using a desktop computer whatsoever, using a laptop instead, so this isn't true is it.
  - thrower123 8y ago
    Well yeah, sure. Laptops and desktops are largely convergent. Smartphones and most tablets are considerably more gimped.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    In this context a laptop and desktop are the same.
  - commandlinefan 8y ago
    I think he meant instead of an ipad.
  - Double_a_92 8y ago
    I counted laptops as desktops here...
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      Well ok then how about running MATLAB on your iPad - you could do a lot of productive work using just that. https://www.mathworks.com/products/matlab-mobile.html https://www.mathworks.com/products/matlab-mobile.html
      - AlexeyBrin 8y ago
        How many children have the money to buy a Matlab license ?
- technomalogical 8y ago
  It does now. But will that be the case in the future? History seems to indicate that the interfaces and paradigms will continue to change. There will be an awkward period (now?) where you need to know both types of interfaces, but there may be a period where touch, voice, or other interfaces replace the now-archaic file cabinet metaphor that the desktop uses today. Look at Windows and all the metaphors that a child today has no context with which to relate: a manila folder, a file cabinet, a floppy disk, an address book, a wall calendar. It seems likely that this will change, and with it the need to understand today's (and that of the last 20-30 years) desktop computer.
maxxxxx 8y ago
"You can do good computer science with a desktop, a tablet, or a pen and paper. " What development environments run well on a tablet?
- dagw 8y ago
  I haven't tried it, but people say nice things about Swift Playground. If you add a keyboard and an internet connection you can also use any of the web based IDEs and programming notebooks out there.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    Why would you do this over a setup with real keyboards and a big screen? I couldn't imagine myself staring a tablet the whole day.
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      If you attach a Bluetooth keyboard and use a larger tablet what is the effective difference between that and a small laptop?
      - gowld 8y ago
        Nothing, but that's disingenuous, because kids aren't hanging out with keyboards and >11inch screens.
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        Once we have 24" tablets maybe this would work for me.
    - dagw 8y ago
      Why would you do this over a setup with real keyboards and a big screen Given the choice I wouldn't, my point was more that only having access to an iPad is no reason to not be able to learn how to program.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
Double_a_92 8y ago
> Why is desktop computing the true computing that identifies whether you're native or not? It's the one platform that allows you to be really productive (at least in an office context). I personally already struggle when trying to write some proper longer text on a smartphone or table. I don't think I could comfortably write some nice Word letter with maybe some custom design on such a device. It maybe works out if you are some artist... Idk.

commandlinefan 8y ago

If anything, I would think that modern computers make it _harder_ to understand what's actually going on. I learned programming on a Commodore 64 - if you wanted to print a character on the screen, you wrote ("poked") a byte into a fixed memory address. If you wanted to read a character from the keyboard, you read ("peeked") a byte from a different fixed memory address. Being so close to the machine helped build an intuition about what was going on behind the scenes, so concepts like garbage collection and virtual memory made a lot more sense when I got around to learning them.